Inconsistent Kanji markings in the book. WHY?

Index » RtK Volume 1

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Reply #1 - 2008 August 17, 4:11 am
Wisher Member
From: Los Angeles Registered: 2008-04-24 Posts: 65

In the book, RTK1, why are the markings different between the Kanji displayed in the box, and the Kanji shown broken down by steps.  It was not an issue until I got to lesson 13. The primitve ROAD is drawn one way.  It is drawn slightly different in the step by step drawing.  The second stroke is drawn to look almost like a mini number 3.  Even when I do the reviews, here, the mini 3 is not shown. 

Another is the Kanji for SAY (335).  The text font shows 4 horizontal lines and a "mouth". The step by step has the first line almost like a DROP.

It is only an issue because out of all of them so far, the ROAD took me sometime to learn to make it look right. Then I do the reviews here, and the picture is different again.  My guess is that it is simply a font change and it should not matter.  But which stroke should I use? Or does it really matter?

Wisher

Reply #2 - 2008 August 17, 4:17 am
sutebun Member
From: Oregon Registered: 2007-06-29 Posts: 172

The ones which show order are meant to look like a more hand-written style.

In other words, if you are reading a Japanese person's hand writing, it will use the non-font styles.

If you want to write like most other people, you should practice that style also (but become good at recognizing both).

Reply #3 - 2008 August 17, 6:22 am
Silmara Member
From: Bremen, Germany Registered: 2008-07-09 Posts: 22

Frequently, my Japanese teacher warns us not to copy the digital fonts as they are most often simplified versions of the correct writing.
For example, 雨　in some digital fonts the little "raindrops" are displayed as horizontal strokes which is simply wrong. They are supposed to be written from the upper left to the lower right. Also 人, the strokes should not touch in the middle (the second stroke should start little below the first stroke) and the kanji should not be written like this if you write something down yourself (I mean analog not digital wink )

So the handwriting in the book is the correct writing of the Kanji.

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Reply #4 - 2008 August 17, 8:30 am
pm215 Member
From: UK Registered: 2008-01-26 Posts: 1354

Silmara wrote:

So the handwriting in the book is the correct writing of the Kanji.

Even following this rule, the book will send you badly wrong when you get to 'orders'. I would not trust the RTK book for either stroke order (too many mistakes!) or 'handwritten form' information -- I recommend going somewhere else if in doubt on either point. WWWJDIC's stroke order animations are good (eg http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi- … 995_%CE%E1)

Reply #5 - 2008 August 23, 5:13 pm
pitwo Member
From: Canada Registered: 2007-07-29 Posts: 11

Honestly, I do not see why stroke order is *that* much of an issue.
It's not like the police is going to arrest you if you occasionally switch two strokes around....

Hell, the Chinese have different stroke order for some characters as a standard, with a lot of variations and don't seem to have much problem.

Reply #6 - 2008 August 23, 5:24 pm
alyks Member
From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

Stroke order is not important. Knowing how many strokes there are is what's important.

Reply #7 - 2008 August 23, 6:06 pm
Jonathan Member
From: Brazil Registered: 2008-02-19 Posts: 30

@ Wisher - It's funny how I took some time when I was starting with RTK to figure out that Japanese - as pretty much any language - as handwritten and font versions of characters that sometimes look pretty different from each other. In the beginning you might have some trouble trying to remember how to write some things like a human would instead of copying a font, but it will eventually take care of itself, has long as you keep good habits (like looking up stuff you are not sure).

I would also like to suggest this site as an alternative to the one pm215 posted, but either one is fine AFAIK: http://www.csus.edu/fl/japanese/gahoh/e … nji-e.html

Getting the stroke order font may also come in handy, especially if you use something like JWPce or Wakan. You can find it here: http://www.users.waitrose.com/~potato/index.html

Reply #8 - 2008 August 23, 9:59 pm
liosama Member
From: sydney Registered: 2008-03-02 Posts: 896

Yes stroke order is important because it really does affect the way your character looks like in the end.
If you follow the stroke order perfectly, then with little effort your kanji will look much better than not following the stroke order and trying to adjust your wrong stroke to work with the picture.

For example
the stroke order for king is
http://www.yamasa.cc/members/ocjs/kanjidic.nsf/AD63BD3A599BDC5449256A90002EBE2D/$FILE/2922_ani.gif

but the stroke order for gold, which 'uses' king has a different stroke order for king (which leads me to suggest that historically, it wasn't derived off king, rather a few other radicals, 2 and ground perhaps?)

http://www.yamasa.cc/members/ocjs/kanjidic.nsf/32A859A991D68A5349256A90002EBFAB/$FILE/4815_ani.gif

All this time, i've been drawing gold/metal with the wrong stroke order (order for king), and it looked ugly, until i followed the correct stroke order, i found that the lengths of strokes felt so much more natural and fit together properly when i drew them in the right order.

Knowing the right stroke order shows that you know the radicals properly and how they fit together.



But in answering your question, the handwritten ones are much nicer and i'd suggest imitating them or the style on yamasa (which i love)

Reply #9 - 2008 August 24, 5:34 am
pm215 Member
From: UK Registered: 2008-01-26 Posts: 1354

pitwo wrote:

Honestly, I do not see why stroke order is *that* much of an issue.
It's not like the police is going to arrest you if you occasionally switch two strokes around....

I don't obsess over stroke order (I probably get 'king' and 'gold' wrong as often as not), but since there is a recommended order for each kanji I do think it's worth warning people off references that are just plain wrong.

My personal take is that it's important to absorb the general rules of stroke order because otherwise your kanji will look odd or be hard to read when written quickly. Similarly where the common handwritten and printed forms diverge ('orders' etc) you should go with the handwritten one. Also things like handwriting recognition interfaces (on PDAs or electronic dictionaries) usually cope with common 'wrong' orderings (like the king/gold ones) but will get confused if you write a character completely backwards.

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