Time for me to buy KO2001 I think? or go with iknow which is free.......

method ?
well anki + phrases ? you read for all of them and write depending on your mood (khatzumoto did the very same thing :when you're honest with yourself you have a pretty good idea where the difficulty is .So when it comes to writing which is the most time consuming you just mentally draw the characters for 80% of the phrases and when you have a doubt about your capacity then you do write  . Now and then you miss something you should have written but in the long run  it's virtually impossible to let something slide especially the way KO2001 is progressively built with some recurrent word and pattern ).
do you mean the pace ? it was quite hectic I must say....
I would say on 8-9 months : strong (around 200 phrases a day on average) - normal - very strong (250 phrases )  and irregular- weak - strong and steady . 
It learns you a lot about discipline , mental strenght : there is something marvellous about the feeling of really getting stronger in a visible way ....Kanji based language just works fine   because kanji are something measurable on the contrary to the true knowledge of language. Hyperpolyglot Barry farber used to say he didn't speak languages he  dated or married them....because you can't never say : "here it is I speak portuguese , russian , german ,etc..."  it 's a process like getting old . One day you wake up and you REALIZE you're old . One day you wake up and you realize you more or less speak a language  . Kanjis are not a process they're fact : you know it    .  So you see figures growing up and up and up .....especially with anki and its stats. It do wonders for your motivation . But in the end you do more than that . You learn discipline  (if you didn't already know and did this work just out of spite and humiliation like me . As Khatzumoto humiliation is strong motive to learn : I just don't stand to look like an idiot before japanese just because I'm not even able to express myself like a 4 years old brat . ) . You learn to work like a clockwork .You stop to run all over the place like a puppy , spend all your energy on a single day when you're motived and stop when you're exhausted . You do it at a regular ,unstoppable pace.  You just fix a number of new cards by days and you forget about the rest : you just do you work every morning and every evening . A precise ,  limited ,defined work . And you know exactly where does it end .So you do it steadily effectively and strongly . It gave me great confidence and made me think about my methods in other area.

Last edited by ghinzdra (2009 January 12, 8:24 am)

Nukemarine wrote:

Ghinzdra, wow, great job. It's embarrassing a bit that I helped type up the spreadsheet (oh my gods, almost a year ago) and never got into the triple digits on it. So yeah, outstanding.

So, do tell, what method did you do for studying reviewing KO? Rough number of new items per day? Dictation? Reading?

I know I won't restart much less finish KO now. It's too similar to iKnow in what it provides ultimately. Still, roughly 3000 sentences covering 5000 vocabulary (actually more than that if you consider unique vocabulary in sentences that are not covered by the 1100 kanji) makes for a compressive baseline.

Man, what a motivating post. Got me all excited.

I've done the 1st volume of KO, and I also spent a few weeks doing iKnow.  For me, iKnow seems to be harder to learn new words than KO.  I guess it's because it lacks the structure that KO has by learning compounds in groups.  It makes up somewhat thanks to the voice recordings, but I still find I'm failing some words over & over more times than with KO.

Edit: My thinking now is, iKnow sentences in KO order

Last edited by vosmiura (2009 January 13, 1:06 am)

vosmiura wrote:

I've done the 1st volume of KO, and I also spent a few weeks doing iKnow.  For me, iKnow seems to be harder to learn new words than KO.  I guess it's because it lacks the structure that KO has by learning compounds in groups.  It makes up somewhat thanks to the voice recordings, but I still find I'm failing some words over & over more times than with KO.

Edit: My thinking now is, iKnow sentences in KO order

yeah KO rules !!!
I don't remember who launched the fad on KO but glod bless him!
I'm sure you can find an another book with kanji in frequency order....(didn't find yet but didn't bother to search either)
You can also find them-graphical construction grouped books (even if it lacks the memory system of KO2001 or group are not as well designed as KO's which has been thouroughly thougth on this question as it tackles with frequency in the same time)
and for those looking for background , KIC is clearly a rival to KO2001

but I'm pretty sure there is no other book gathering all those features in one simple book ... As I said before  while my grammar book are quite good (for instance except for a couple of words kanzen master  2kyuu gives you all the grammatical word of the 2Kyuu and some very deep insight into some of them  with often 2 uses and sometimes up 6! and 3 sentences at least for each use . )  they're not unique . You can choose another one and you'll find pretty much the same stuff: maybe there'll be will more sentences exemples , some point will be better explained , there will a be cd (the real flaw of kanzen master as far as I'm concerned)  ,  but more or less there is not point in arguing.....  KO2001 is different :  just as RTK it is simply without real rival .


By the way I sent an email to people having created KIC software (I'm just checking up if  typing in can be avoided....I hate to waste my time.) and another one to KO2001 about an hypothetical 3rd volume (even I feel it won't be as useful : one of the main claim of the KO2001 system is to learn 90% of the useful kanji with barely 60% of the joho . So effiency gain are almost non existent now . I mean what's the point of putting into order 900 kanjis if it's for less than 10% reading efficiency.... Now it's just about completing the 2000 without repetition induced by another method and there are other ways to settle the problem. Furthermore another competitive advantage disappears :easiness. Indeed once KO2001 is mastered KIC for instance doesn't look so hard.)
So I'll forward you the answers of both companies, if any.

Last edited by ghinzdra (2009 January 13, 3:26 am)

Ok so I've got both Kanji Odyssey books and sent an email to the Google document group but haven't gotten a response (it has been several weeks).   Is there a secret handshake I need to know to get access to the spreadsheet document?

ghinzdra wrote:

sorry this is my bad . I got big health problem during a while  and as my studies and the japanese took the best part of me  I tried to spare my energy on everything else .....
I'll give you access , just give me picture and quote from both book .

Once again all my apologies.

No need to apologize, you guys are the ones that did all of the work.

Picture of both books with my profile info in the background:

I've just finished KO2001 myself, like 2 days ago. But now I'm not sure as to study the remaining readings by KO2001 level 3's order, or just add them randomly according to what I come across to. KO2001 has been awesome, since I can follow the news easier after it. But since level 3 only corresponds to 10% of the kanji used, maybe it's better to add them not in order?

If you have no grammar, then you'll need to do that before KO. There are plenty of stuff out there for that. I suggest search the threads.

The good news is you dont need a super advanced level of grammar to get into KO, so its not too far off!

You need some grammar, not much though. UseTae Kim's grammar guide, you only need to read the basic grammar and essential grammar up to conditionals to understand the majority of the sentences. After that just look up grammar when you need it. Actually, straight from the introduction of the guide:

I recommend practicing Japanese as much as possible and referring to this guide only when you cannot understand the grammar.

suishoo wrote:

I've just finished KO2001 myself, like 2 days ago. But now I'm not sure as to study the remaining readings by KO2001 level 3's order, or just add them randomly according to what I come across to. KO2001 has been awesome, since I can follow the news easier after it. But since level 3 only corresponds to 10% of the kanji used, maybe it's better to add them not in order?

I'm really just talking out of my rear on this one as I haven't finished KO2001 yet myself (working hard at it though) but if you think their word frequency list is efficient then, well, it is efficient.

Remember, the more vocabulary you get the less frequent vocabulary you're going to find. There is no way around it.  If you really believe KO's list covers 90% of common compounds, as it states, then there is only 10% left no matter where you get new compounds from. 

One could almost make the argument that the last 10% of vocab is the most important.  That 10% covers an incredible amount of words that you are not going to get a chance to see all that incredibly often but at the same time most of them, to a point at least, are still incredibly important words.  If KO2001 can cover at least part of that 10% as efficient as it does the first 90% then I can't see how it would be a bad thing.

I'm wondering the same thing - Is this whole Google spreadsheet thing dead, because the leader of the group left? I'm going to buy the E-book soon, and I'd really like to get my hands on that spreadsheet!

Time to bring this thread back on course of what the title is:

Woot I finally finished Vol. I a couple days ago and finally moved onto Vol. II.
It took me about 7 months to finish it.  I did Reproduction(かな→漢字) and Recognition(Read sentence out loud w/o furigana), and I input each sentence by hand/keyboard (it really did help me remember the sentences better..but that is just me). 

One comment I would like to make on inputing each sentence into anki by hand is that I noticed a HUGE improvement in my typing speed in Japanese. You put in 1500+ sentences by hand and you will notice a difference, so all that time does not go to waste. I am now sitting at 1752 sentences(3,504 cards)...still far off from 10,000 lol.
But I dont think you need 10,000 sentences to be a master of tongue in Japanese.

Another point I would like to make is that when I did (and still do) my reviews on production cards I write out the ENTIRE sentence EVERY time..yeah it got tedious and almost led to burn out sometimes(nothing a quick break can't fix), but it really improved my writing speed and aesthetics of my kanji. And the major plus side to this it really developed my motor memory of some of the kanji/vocab words/kana.  It is great/scary to see the hesig stories falling away from some of the earlier kanji learned in KO Vol. I..i dont use the story any more it just comes out.. 

I agree with Ghindra (sp?) that this book should be sold together with RTK, cause i went through the same thing when doing this book as I did with RTK but this time it was just readings.  Going through RTK one day I would know the meaning of a kanji that I had seen for ages.  Going through KO2001(vol. 1) I would notice my brain attaching sounds to the kanji that I had always slapped english keywords on.

As for the results of just Vol. I:
Prior to Vol. I, I had 3級 level grammar and RtK under my belt and about 1 year of traditional study while living and working in japan.
-Now I can read my emails at work with some decent understanding
-I almost always can read street signs, advertisement ads, your usual day to day situation documents
-I can fill out most common forms in Japanese (just got my Tsutaya card all by myself woohoo)
-With Just Vol. I i can even read the powerpoint presentations my co-workers make for meetings..not 100% but at least i can follow the content
-My listening comprehension has reached a completely new level ..i can *roughly* follow the news now (thanks to being able to recognize all those vocab words)
-As for speaking...wow, i think this is more due to the nature of SRSing sentences but I do find I dont think so hard about grammatical rules when speaking japanese. I have some pretty complicated (it is all relevent to the person lol) sentences come out of my mouth sometimes with out having translated it first in my head..u really DO cut and paste sentences you have learned and make new ones.  However..i still use grammar rules as a crutch when things get complicated for me. But in comparison my reading and listening PWNS the sh*t out of my speaking so much it is scary...

Things I cant do(but will be able to in due time):
-Read technical magazines and novels with comfort
-Play RPG and follow the story line script and difficult parts

Future plans:
-RtK3(#2160 atm) along side of KO2001 Vol. 2
-After KO2001, mine 完全マスター2級 or どんな時どう使う(still debating which to use) example sentences
-lastly finally..start mining from my immersion material.

Last edited by saizen (2009 May 15, 12:42 am)

Congrats Saizan and to follow up on what you wrote:

For those that use the spreadsheet to bulk import into Anki, a way to simulate the benefit of typing in sentences (initial learning being the biggest) is to write out the sentence by hand at least once.

Another variant to simulate benefit of typing is for pronunciation cards, type in the sentence in addition to reading it out. This will make your reviews take longer though.