How do I make the transition to Japanese-Japanese cards..?

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Virtua_Leaf wrote:
Hello. My name is Virtua_Leaf. I'm ready to ditch these shackles that bide me to the English language and make Japanese my primary. Please help me do this.

My current Anki setup is this:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/4915 … intyb7.png

Currently going Japanese > English only.

It shows me the Japanese sentence. After reading it I click "show answer" which then reveals to me the reading and English meaning.

What do I need to do/change to move into the realms of near-native fluency?

You should NEVER use translations, even when you're as newbie as it gets. For example, I started learning korean using sentences a few days ago, and I've never used a single translation. I translate every word from korean to japanese and put them in a proper row. Even if this doesn't become a proper translation, it doesn't matter, I can see what every word means so there's really no way I won't understand the meaning in full. (If I don't I would probably write a small description, but NEVER a direct translation).

TheSpartan Member

From: Tennessee Registered: 2007-11-16 Posts: 30

Tobberoth wrote:
Virtua_Leaf wrote:
Hello. My name is Virtua_Leaf. I'm ready to ditch these shackles that bide me to the English language and make Japanese my primary. Please help me do this.

My current Anki setup is this:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/4915 … intyb7.png

Currently going Japanese > English only.

It shows me the Japanese sentence. After reading it I click "show answer" which then reveals to me the reading and English meaning.

What do I need to do/change to move into the realms of near-native fluency?
You should NEVER use translations, even when you're as newbie as it gets. For example, I started learning korean using sentences a few days ago, and I've never used a single translation. I translate every word from korean to japanese and put them in a proper row. Even if this doesn't become a proper translation, it doesn't matter, I can see what every word means so there's really no way I won't understand the meaning in full. (If I don't I would probably write a small description, but NEVER a direct translation).

Using translations is ok imo, just make sure your cards have nothing to do with answering in english or the question being in english, have the english somewhere off to the side just to check that you understand the meaning. i also recommend putting the translation in japanese grammatical structure.

alyks Member

From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

I've been trying to move toward looking things up in yahoo/sanseido, but it's hard. I barely understand anything. I just need to keep doing it, I guess...

What's really cool is when you run into something like this:
きょねん【去年】:
今の年の前の年。昨年。

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Transtic Member

Registered: 2007-07-29 Posts: 201

Or like this:

後悔
　　　　　後になって悔やむこと。

悔やむ
　　　　　［1］失敗したり、うまくゆかなかったりしたことについて、別の処理をしておけばよかった、とあとになって残念に思う。くやしく思う。後悔する。

・あとから―・んでも仕方がない

After things like that, I feel stupid for not having started using monolingual dictionaries long long ago.

Last edited by Transtic (2008 September 19, 12:08 pm)

Virtua_Leaf Member

From: UK Registered: 2007-09-07 Posts: 340

Transtic wrote:
Or like this:

後悔
　　　　　後になって悔やむこと。

悔やむ
　　　　　［1］失敗したり、うまくゆかなかったりしたことについて、別の処理をしておけばよかった、とあとになって残念に思う。くやしく思う。後悔する。

・あとから―・んでも仕方がない

After things like that, I feel stupid for not having started using monolingual dictionaries long long ago.

Whaddya know, I pretty much understood that. With a little practice perhaps it will get easier...

I probably should make the switch. Maybe I'll put 10 or so J-J cards in Anki and see how it goes. If I struggle to the point of not learning anything I'll know I'm not ready yet and switch back.

Virtua_Leaf Member

From: UK Registered: 2007-09-07 Posts: 340

I thought I'd try it straight away so what I of did was, I have 100 or so cards lined up waiting for review, so for every word I got wrong I'd put in a definition from Yahoo JP and delete the English while I was at it.

It seemed to worked well happily enough. For words I didn't know I'd put them into Yahoo JP too and get the definition, but when I started needing definitions for words in definitions, it got a bit overwhelming. Now, I'd be willing to do that but it does get very confusing when it comes to placing these definitions. They were multiplying like cells (don't want to say a disease...). How does eveyone cope with this?

Last edited by Virtua_Leaf (2008 September 19, 2:45 pm)

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Virtua_Leaf wrote:
I thought I'd try it straight away so what I of did was, I have 100 or so cards lined up waiting for review, so for every word I got wrong I'd put in a definition from Yahoo JP and delete the English while I was at it.

It seemed to worked well happily enough. For words I didn't know I'd put them into Yahoo JP too and get the definition, but when I started needing definitions for words in definitions, it got a bit overwhelming. Now, I'd be willing to do that but it does get very confusing when it comes to placing these definitions. They were multiplying like cells (don't want to say a disease...). How does eveyone cope with this?

I would recommend my own theory: Use definitions for the words you don't know in your sentence, but use translations for the words in the definitions. The reason being that it's the original sentence you're studying, not the definition. In the start, there will be a LOT of words in every defenition you don't understand, it's not like you can have the answer page to be 20 or so definitions, you have to start using quick translations somewhere.

suffah Member

From: New York Registered: 2006-09-14 Posts: 261

I think it comes down to what you're trying to learn from the sentence. Is it grammar, vocab, reading, all of the above?

I usually BOLD the part of the sentence I'm focused on and have a corresponding J explanation in the answer.

Matthias Member

From: Germany Registered: 2005-10-27 Posts: 37

For my taste the sentence example of Virtua_Leaf seemed to be too long and too complex. Depending on your level of knowledge one card per sentence or even one card for a part of a sentence might be easier to learn.

An example of a short portion taken from a long sentence: (八時半、ダーズリー氏は鞄を持ち、)奥さんの頬にちょこっとキスして、....

I do not want to spend time on creating translations and I do not want to spend too much time on looking up unknown words. For me it is sufficient to have in case of need some help on reading and meaning. With Jim Breen's "Translate Words" it is easy to create this help list for the answer side without looking up word for word.

Same (short and easy) example:
奥さんの頬にちょこっとキスして、
奥さん【おくさん】 (n) (hon) wife; your wife; his wife; married lady; madam; (P); EP
頬【ほほ】 (n) cheek (of face); SP
ちょこっと (adv,adj) rather; a little; small; KD
キス (n,vs) kiss

Is there any chance for doing this "one-stop-shopping" with a monolingual online dictionary? If so, that might be a way Virtua_Leaf could try - at least for the sentence itself (and for the unknown part of the definition you could follow Tobberoth's advice).

Last edited by Matthias (2008 September 19, 5:10 pm)

Virtua_Leaf Member

From: UK Registered: 2007-09-07 Posts: 340

This is sounding great you guys. J-exclusive definitions are all well and good but it's no use being unreasonable. I'll do J-definitions for words I don't know in the main sentence, then English meanings for words I don't know in those definitions, or depending on the amount I could go for another J-def.

I'll try and keep it as Japanese as possible but I'll have to use common sense if it seems like I'm going into a never ending Russian doll cycle.

Great, thanks for your help. I think I'll 'level up' tomorrow then.

Transtic Member

Registered: 2007-07-29 Posts: 201

Matthias wrote:
Is there any chance for doing this "one-stop-shopping" with a monolingual online dictionary?

Check the reading tutor.

You can also use the online version of Anki with Rikaichan, or another offline option with a program like Wakan. With Wakan you can set it up to watch the clipboard, so when you need to look up a word just select it and copy it with the right button or ctrl+c.

Erubey Member

From: Escondido California Registered: 2008-01-14 Posts: 162

I just leave out english. I don't even define the words I'm learning most of the time. I know what they mean or will remember, but the readings get me. If I am struggling, I''l just put a one word English meaning.
I tried the approach of using japanese definitions for the vocab but I just found it boring and tedious.

Really none of my cards answer side has more information than just readings and maybe something like 名詞Aから名詞B for a grammar point. If it had more information I'd need the card font smaller and I refuse!

QuackingShoe Member

From: USA Registered: 2008-04-19 Posts: 721

Erubey wrote:
I just leave out english. I don't even define the words I'm learning most of the time. I know what they mean or will remember, but the readings get me.

This is something I've been wondering about lately. I don't have any definitions on my cards anymore, and for the same reason; I've never actually forgotten what a sentence I insert into anki means. Possibly because I only take sentences out of stories, so I always remember the context they came with. I may forget a word when I see it in a completely different context, but within the context of that sentence, or ones similar to it, I don't.

Does everyone else, or is it just a habit thing?

thermal Member

From: Melbourne, Australia Registered: 2007-11-30 Posts: 399

Tobberoth wrote:
thermal wrote:
I think going J-J is actually a really simple process. What ever you are learning for the card, just explain it in Japanese.

For example if this is your sentence:

猫が好きです。

and the word 猫 is new, then explain the meaning in Japanese.

猫：（ねこ）寝ることと魚が好きな動物。

If you can't explain the new word in Japanese then either don't put in the answer, or get the definition from sanseido or something. Whatever you do don't put English on your cards.

When you are reviewing (or when you look up a word you don't know). If you don't understand the definition, then use something like rikaichan to help you. Finally if you still don't understand then look at the translation. This way the English translation is an absolute last resort and as you improve you will use it less and less.

For a grammar point, again explain or demonstrate it with examples in Japanese.

I would just be a little bit careful of making the change too early though. You can always switch back though if you need to.
I doubt writing your own definitions for words is a good thing. You will miss all the subtleties. It's okey for a basic word like cat, but eventually you will get words which are kind of hard to explain. A real japanese definition from a kokugo jisho makes sure you understand the word as it is understood by a japanese person.

It's good practice though to write the definitions and you don't need it to be absolutely perfect. Example:

民主主義：オーストラリアやアメリカなどの社会の制度。簡単に言うと首脳を選べる制度。

Now for someone who knows the word democracy, especially already in the context of a sentence this is enough for them to realise what it means. Plus the thing is, most of the time no definition is needed since the meaning is kind of obvious in the sentence. So you don't need some elaborate definition, just something good enough to get you to remember the meaning of the sentence. EG.

日本の一般的な交通手段は車と電車だ。

交通手段：AからBまで行く方法。

Now outside of the context of this sentence, this definiton is pretty vague. But with the sentence, it is enough to spark understanding of the meaning.

Again if you can't make a definition, sure get a real dictionary one. The problem with that is you then have to look up definitions of the words in the definition when you are studying. I actually like to compare my definitions to the real ones though. It's a real thrill when they are basically identical.

Matthias Member

From: Germany Registered: 2005-10-27 Posts: 37

Context helps a lot: not only for the meaning but also for the reading. 奥さんの頬にちょこっとキスして、... was an example from Harry Potter. Just looking at 頬 I would have had no chance to get meaning or reading (and I just noticed why it was difficult for me: I did not yet learn 頬 as an isolated kanji). But the context helped me to understand what it was about and by this I knew also how to read it.

Nevertheless I forget not only readings but also meanings. And here the context can even be a trap. The sentence looks familiar and you just let it pass, although you missed the correct meaning of a word or grammatical construction. So I prefer having the necessary information right at hand to be able to check immediately.

The "reading tutor" gives out this for my small example sentence:
奥さん【おくさん】

他人の妻
[your] wife

頬【ほお / ほほ】

【ほお】
1 顔の両わきの部分
cheek
2 頬という,顔の部分
cheek

【ほほ】
1 頬という,顔の部分
cheek
2 顔の両わきの部分
cheek

ちょこっと【ちょこっと】

1 小さくかしこまっているさま〔ちょこんと〕
(of the way in which a young woman or girl is sitting about) demurely / (of the way in which a young woman or girl is sitting about) properly / (of the way in which a young woman or girl is sitting about) in a well-mannered way / (of the way in which a young woman or girl is sitting about) primly / (of the way in which a young woman or girl is sitting about) quietly / (of the way in which a young woman or girl is sitting about) respectfully
2 ほんの少し〔ちょっぴり〕
just a little / just a tiny bit / just a wee bit / just a little over / just a little more
3 時間がわずかなあいだであるさま
no more than a second / just a moment / for a little while / momentarily / just a minute

キス【きす】

鱚という魚
sillaginoid / Sillago sihama(scientific name) / sand borer
～する
1 接吻する
kiss
2 玉突において,当てた球に再び触れる
kissing / kiss

So that brings me to a question Mark asked already in January:

"I have been trying the 'Reading Tutor' (http://language.tiu.ac.jp/tools_e.html), and though it seems good, I am wondering which dictionary it actually uses when you click 'JP -> JP'.

I have had a rummage around the site, but I couldn't find a reference to the dictionary (my reading is not very hot yet, though!).

I am guessing it uses one or other of the online ones, but before I start importing definitions from the 'Reading Tutor' into my SRS I want to be sure of exactly which one it uses - just to be sure that it's a good one!

So, does anyone know which J-J dictionary it actually uses? Can you point me to a reference on the website? "

leosmith Member

Registered: 2005-11-18 Posts: 352

AdamLeliel wrote:
I understand the benefit

I don't. The way I see it, you'll only be using flashcards for a short period of time, relative to the total amount of time you'll be using Japanese. Also, you'll read the answer side of your flashcards a low percentage of the time. And when you're past the translating stage, you won't even want to put non-japanese on your cards. So it seems to me that it doesn't really matter if there's some non-Japanese in the early stages.

I think the confusion comes up when people try to teach themselves to read almost exclusively from flashcards. If you wean yourself early, this is a non-issue.

Virtua_Leaf Member

From: UK Registered: 2007-09-07 Posts: 340

Sorry to butt in again but is going both recognition and production definitely the best thing?

I've just made this card:

Expression: それらの料理は神々の食物であったために両親は呪いを掛けられ、豚になってしまう。

Meaning: のろい〔のろひ〕【?呪い／?詛い】
のろうこと。呪詛(じゅそ)。「―をかける」「―をとく」

Reading: それらのりょうりはかみがみの{たべもの|しょくもつ}であったためにりょうしんはのろいをかけられ、{ぶた|とん}になってしまう。

It shows me the expression first, and when I click it then gives me meaning (where I've put the definition of a word I didn't know) along with the reading feild also.

The problem is, going both ways, I also get a card that first shows me the meaning (ie the word definition) and then gives me the sentence after I click 'show', which is really quite useless.

How do I construct the productive equivalent of this card? Also, when I deleted the useless card it deleted my main one as well! What should I do?

Edit - Also, how do I decide which reading is correct for when Anki automatically gives me two choices for a word?

Last edited by Virtua_Leaf (2008 September 20, 6:53 am)

chamcham Member

Registered: 2005-11-11 Posts: 1444

For learning names, download this Anki deck:

http://ichi2.net/anki/wiki/ExtraDecks?a … Names.anki

It is available here:
http://ichi2.net/anki/wiki/ExtraDecks

It contains the 1000 most common family names.
In reality, the top 100 should be good enough for most people.

I generally learn names via Japanese TV dramas. I try to
learn the names of all the actors and characters.

What I find interesting about names is that they often
contain the Kanji with Heisig keywords that don't make
much sense(i.e. you won't use them often since the
mearning is not very useful). Many of the seemingly useless
kanji in Heisig are primarily used for names.

Take a look at the current (Summer 2008) and upcoming
season dramas and see how many of these kanji are used for names.

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Currently_Airing_JDrama
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Upcoming_JDrama

Last edited by chamcham (2008 September 20, 8:23 am)

Serge Member

From: Tokyo Registered: 2006-04-04 Posts: 275

QuackingShoe wrote:
Erubey wrote:
I just leave out english. I don't even define the words I'm learning most of the time. I know what they mean or will remember, but the readings get me.
This is something I've been wondering about lately. I don't have any definitions on my cards anymore, and for the same reason; I've never actually forgotten what a sentence I insert into anki means. Possibly because I only take sentences out of stories, so I always remember the context they came with. I may forget a word when I see it in a completely different context, but within the context of that sentence, or ones similar to it, I don't.

Does everyone else, or is it just a habit thing?

Same here. Ever since I've lived in Japan (two months and counting!), I have followed the same routine. I go about my daily tasks with my Casio EX-Word in hand, looking up words from books I'm reading, adverts on the Tube, conversations around me, podcasts I'm listening to, etc. When I come home, I go through the history of my look-ups for that particular day (or a number of days, if I've been lazy), pick out words I believe are really useful, look them up in the built-in dictionary for MacOS and get my sentences from that dictionary. My sentences are seldom real sentences, though, more like: a noun + a verb or an adjective + a noun, sometimes a bit longer. I also try to limit the number of new words per entry to one or maximum two (annoying exceptions being sentences I cut and paste from the news sites).

The 'answer' side only contains the reading for the new words. I don't use Anki and there is no point in writing out the whole thing in kana. I also don't see any point in pasting definitions in this field. I have experimented with this and have found that it is either:

(1) entirely useless if I remember the word anyway so I never look at that definition again
(2) entirely useless even if I don't remember the word as it's way faster to look up the word again (all it takes under MacOS is copying the word and the dictionary running in the background automatically displays the meaning)

Whatever value there is in working one's way through dictionary definitions I believe is offset by saving the time to go through more words and do more real-life reading. If I find myself consistently forgetting the word's meaning, adding more (self-explanatory) examples usually helps.

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Serge wrote:
Whatever value there is in working one's way through dictionary definitions I believe is offset by saving the time to go through more words and do more real-life reading.

But that depends on your skill, does it not? If you're not good enough at Japanese to understand the definitions, obviously you will waste a lot of time without getting any better understanding. However, if you can read 80% of a definition without problem, it shouldn't take you much longer to look up a Japanese definition than looking up an English one. The difference in understanding is potentially great.

mentat_kgs Member

From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

One thing that is very IMPORTANT:

Sanseido's definitions are much better for going monodict.
Yahoo is great for the sentences, but its kokugo is harder to understand.

From yahoo:
こう‐かい〔‐クワイ〕【後悔】

［名］(スル)自分のしてしまったことを、あとになって失敗であったとくやむこと。「短い快楽に永い―」「今さら―しても始まらない」

From Sanseido:
こうかい 1 ［後悔］

〈スル〉あとで悔やむこと．

So, after failing to go monodict with yahoo or some other dictionary, try going monodict with sanseido.

alyks Member

From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

Yes, I found this out the hard way. Simpler and more concise definitions are critical to making a smooth transition to J-J.

mentat_kgs Member

From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

Actualy I'm not yet monodict.

I'm using sentences recursively. I add 3-4 more sentences for every word I dont know, so I base my understanding of the words on the sentences, not on the definitions.

I seem I'm allmost never falling back to the definitions.

alyks Member

From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

mentat_kgs wrote:
Actualy I'm not yet monodict.

I'm using sentences recursively. I add 3-4 more sentences for every word I dont know, so I base my understanding of the words on the sentences, not on the definitions.

I seem I'm allmost never falling back to the definitions.

I'm the same way, Mentat. I've been stalling on switching over even at 800 sentences because of the same thing. I just don't have a pressing need to look up words. Not only that, but the new words are grammar words that are really hard to understand in a Japanese grammar.

But when I move on to reading manga, I'll definitively be going monolingual. This is because I'll actually have a pressing need to be looking up words, and because I'll have a good amount of grammar words under my belt.

Erubey Member

From: Escondido California Registered: 2008-01-14 Posts: 162

QuackingShoe wrote:
Erubey wrote:
I just leave out english. I don't even define the words I'm learning most of the time. I know what they mean or will remember, but the readings get me.
This is something I've been wondering about lately. I don't have any definitions on my cards anymore, and for the same reason; I've never actually forgotten what a sentence I insert into anki means. Possibly because I only take sentences out of stories, so I always remember the context they came with. I may forget a word when I see it in a completely different context, but within the context of that sentence, or ones similar to it, I don't.

Does everyone else, or is it just a habit thing?

I get all of my sentences from stories as well. When I first started I just used any sentence I could find but the lack of any connection and a thousand random thoughts put in flashcard form caused me actual stress.

I don't know if using only stories, and therefore using a lot of context, has any negative effects. I'll see as I go along I guess.

Index » General discussion

Virtua_Leaf wrote:

Tobberoth wrote:

Virtua_Leaf wrote:

Transtic wrote:

Virtua_Leaf wrote:

Matthias wrote:

Erubey wrote:

Tobberoth wrote:

thermal wrote:

AdamLeliel wrote:

QuackingShoe wrote:

Erubey wrote:

Serge wrote:

mentat_kgs wrote:

QuackingShoe wrote:

Erubey wrote: