Help! RTK Done and now the kanji are trying to eat me!

Index » General discussion

 
Reply #26 - 2008 July 07, 4:27 pm
furrykef Member
From: Oklahoma City Registered: 2008-06-24 Posts: 191

You mean it's a c-stem verb. If it were a v-stem verb, it'd be normal to spell it that way. wink Anyway, it's indeed strange that it includes the じ in the okurigana, but I think it's a pretty rare exception. It's an uncommon exception to begin with just by being a c-stem verb ending with -iru (but c-stem verbs ending in -eru occur more frequently).

While we're on the subject, there are some other verbs with irregular okurigana and you just have to memorize them. Sometimes it's so you can tell different words apart (上がる, "agaru", has the "が" so you can tell it apart from 上る, "noboru"), sometimes it's just tradition or something...

Another thing worthy of note: -shii adjectives also include the "shi" in okurigana: tadashii is 正しい, not 正い. The reason is apparently that -shii adjectives used to conjugate different from other -i adjectives in Classical Japanese, so it's considered a different suffix, but they don't conjugate differently anymore, and they just keep the extra kana anyway.

EDIT EDIT EDIT

Somehow I missed this post:

Nukemarine wrote:

Due to a recent AJATT post, a few of us are using a Text to Speech program to read out kanji sentences into sound files. Then we attach the sound files to our cards in Anki. Works pretty good.

I have to say I can't really recommend this. I bought the NeoSpeech Show voice ($35) and it's kinda crappy for this purpose. I understand that Misaki is probably better (still far from ideal), but either you gotta pay almost 10x as much or you gotta pirate it. I don't like either option.

The biggest problem with the Show voice -- I don't know how much Misaki has the same problem -- is that it's hard to hear pitch accent with it correctly. 犬です should be pronounced "i-NU dess" in Tokyo-ben, but it sounds more like "I-nu dess" when pronounced by Show. (Going by the free demo at www.neospeech.com, Misaki does seem to pronounce it better, though.) Sometimes the pitch is more clear in a longer sentence... sometimes it isn't. I bought Show partly so I could practice listening for pitch accent... I'm rather disappointed that its pitch accent isn't very good.

Another thing is that their speech is just not natural and, if you're in the beginner stage, you can't always hear it when it is. Misaki's is better than Show's, but still estimated to be off 15% of the time (I think that percentage is a rough guess, though). If you end up talking like them, you'll end up with some bad habits that are tough to fix.

Am I urging you not to use TTS programs for Anki flash cards? Nah. Supplement it with enough real Japanese speech, and make sure you use sentences where the pitch accent is both clear and correct, and maybe it'll work out fine. You just gotta be really, really on your toes.

- Kef

Last edited by furrykef (2008 July 07, 4:43 pm)

Reply #27 - 2008 July 07, 5:11 pm
snispilbor Member
From: Ohio USA Registered: 2008-03-23 Posts: 150 Website

Shibo wrote:

Nukemarine wrote:

Due to a recent AJATT post, a few of us are using a Text to Speech program to read out kanji sentences into sound files. Then we attach the sound files to our cards in Anki. Works pretty good.

Now for production I have Anki display the Kana version of the sentence and play the audio. With that, I try to write down the sentence in kanji. More difficult, but it tests your listening comprehension as well as all the other items.

This sounds amazing. I'd definitely like to give it a try. I can see myself having a great deal of fun with this study method. I do have another question. How do you guys handle new vocab? Do you make a separate card with english on one side, and a little mp3 on the other? Or do you put the word in kana or kanji  on one side and use a picture instead of an english word? I know I've heard people say they just learn the word in context with the new sentence, but hell.. If the sentence is "I'm going to the mall to buy a new wallet" and you didn't know the word wallet, how are you gonna remember you're not going to the mall to buy a new belt, etc?

Personally I put a sentence on the Q side, and the readings on the answer side, along with an invisible-text English translation.  The invisible text is done by putting the translation in quotes in html tags, <"like this">, then Mnemosyne doesn't render it since it seems like nonsense html.  Thing is, just typing the translation the one time is usually enough that in the future my mind knows how to parse everything, so I rarely have to edit the card to look at the invisible translation after that.

Hopefully though your sentences should be better than "I went to the mall to buy a wallet".  Like, "I pulled a ten yen coin from my wallet" or something.  On the other hand, sometimes that's fine.  A lot of U.S. fluent English speakers "know" the word "kumquat" even though they wouldn't know a kumquat if they saw one.  Fluency isn't so much about knowing every word, as knowing when a word is important...

Last edited by snispilbor (2008 July 07, 5:13 pm)

Reply #28 - 2008 July 07, 5:40 pm
Mcjon01 Member
From: 大阪 Registered: 2007-04-09 Posts: 551

Blech.  Kumquats.  I don't know how people can stand the things, they're vile, bitter little fruits.

In any case, I think the beauty of learning vocabulary from sentences instead of just lists is the fact that you're almost assuredly not going to be trying to learn a word from just one sentence.  You're going to be seeing a word in lots of sentences, and the fact that the same word is showing up in so many different contexts makes it easier to grasp the meaning and actually use the word.  So, if you were learning the word "wallet", you'd have a whole range of sentences in your deck, from "I went to the mall to buy a wallet," to "I took some money out of my wallet," to "My wallet was stolen last week," to "I usually carry my wallet in my back pocket," and so on.

Advertising (register and sign in to hide this)
JapanesePod101 Sponsor
 
JapanesePod101
Reply #29 - 2008 July 07, 9:15 pm
thermal Member
From: Melbourne, Australia Registered: 2007-11-30 Posts: 399

Shibo,

I too have just finished (well about 50 to go) and have started the AJATT method with KO. I am using the flip method: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl … panese-too

So my question is hiragana and my answer is kanji and I don't practice the reverse. I read the hiragana and try and write the sentence, then check I got it right. I think the answer to your problem, is remember to focus what you are learning for that card. Ultimately your goal may be to learn whole sentences in everyway, but at the start I believe you need to break up what you want to learn into one or two things.

So I put the word (or sometimes words) that is the focus of the card in italics. I rate my success purely on my ability to remember this word. If it is easy, even if I fail to remember any of the other kanji or words, I will choose 4 in Anki. This way there is no burden or pressure early on to suddenly know all the words you come accross. There is no need to worry about those other words yet either, since you will come across them in their own frames. I do try and write them just for more practice though.

In terms of TTS, I have opted for the moment not to use it for a few reasons.

1. My pronunciation is one of my strong points.
2. I almost never don't understand something due to how fast the speaker is speaking. Don't know why exactly, but if they speak clearly my brain can almost always keep up.
3. The 15% of incorrect pronunciation worries me.
4. I don't want to spend time making these audio files. I would reconsider if I could just plug TTS straight into Anki.

Out of interest, what is the process involved in adding TTS to a fact in Anki? How long does it take?

Also has anyone used GhostReader, the Mac TTS variant? If I do eventually decide to go wtih TTS I would like to use this, but worry that it is inferior to TextAloud.

Reply #30 - 2008 July 07, 10:01 pm
mentat_kgs Member
From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

I've heard some voices from TTS in my native language. They erm, were not good. After hearing that I just wont trust a TTS for japanese.

Reply #31 - 2008 July 07, 10:48 pm
rich_f Member
From: north carolina Registered: 2007-07-12 Posts: 1708

With TextAloud, you just have to type in the text, then hit record to MP3, and there you go. MP3 is done. Just import it into Anki. It takes all of about 20 seconds.

Ghinzdra did some tests with the Misaki voice and some of his Japanese teachers, and none of them really had a problem with it. I think if you use it to simply read questions, and not try to base your own pronunciation off of it, you'll be fine. It will at least get you used to trying to understand people who may not have perfect pronunciation skills-- i.e., 99% of any language's speakers. Nobody really talks like the people you hear on language tapes.

Also, if you plan to take the JLPT, get used to the idea of people talking as if they're speaking while eating a bowl of jell-o and marbles while gargling. When I took it a few years ago, I swear they found the world's worst boom box ever and then stuck it under water just to make it harder to understand. -_-

Now that I think about it, maybe I'll fire up TA. big_smile

Reply #32 - 2008 July 11, 5:51 pm
stshores24 Member
From: Atlanta Registered: 2008-01-22 Posts: 71 Website

rich_f wrote:

Also, if you plan to take the JLPT, get used to the idea of people talking as if they're speaking while eating a bowl of jell-o and marbles while gargling. When I took it a few years ago, I swear they found the world's worst boom box ever and then stuck it under water just to make it harder to understand. -_-

As an aside, it is practical to purchase the past JLPT tests with the listening comprehension CDs? (I noticed some on WRP's site, http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog … c-250.html .) I figured it might give me some idea of what to anticipate.