The "pack of wild dogs" primitive gets a separate image from the normal dog primitive specifically because it doesn't bear much resemblance to it.  Heisig does it fairly often throughout the book when a primitive takes vastly different forms depending on where it's placed, and in my experience it's best to just think of them as two entirely different (but related) primitives.

There's usually no problem with changing primitives, so long as you make sure to check the index and see that you aren't changing it to something Heisig has already used.  The only downside is that you can't be lazy like me and just lift stories directly from this site.

I don't really understand what problem you have with using cow for 先 though, since the primitives have nothing to do with the actual meaning of a kanji.  They're just there to help you construct the kanji.  I mean, I'm pretty sure that 新 doesn't have anything to do with red-pepper plants.

The "pack of wild dogs" primitive occurs a lot, so you'll definitely have no problem remembering what it means.

Myself, I completely forgot that "cow" was a primitive for 先. I mean, I know how to write it and I see the cow now that it's pointed out, obviously, but I too already had that one well memorized. Despite Heisig's advice, I often just skip over kanji if I already know them and any possible story for them would seem too contrived.

- Kef

I would recommend keeping wild dogs as wild dogs and portent as turtle.

They are the only part of the book that uses visual memory, but they barely use it. The turtle does look a bit like a turtle shell, the pack of wild dogs could be construed as 犬 stretched a bit, imagine the top part is the dogs head, and imagine a pack of wild dogs sniffing the ground... invert the head and rotate it 90 degrees and you got something that looks like it...

I don't see the problem anyway, you will use them so often you'll soon remember them, and whats learning the handful of primatives that dont have a story attached explaining how to draw them, that you will use over and over and soon remember compared to memorising 200 kanji?

Cirion wrote:

On visual vs. imagination, for me my imagination works best when I can get a concrete image in my head of what the primitive/kanji is supposed to represent. Otherwise, it's just an abstract symbol attached to a word. For example, I was stuck on "sword" and related kanjis because I couldn't connect the word to the squiggles until someone explained how it was supposed to look like a sword handle. Then the kanjis came easily.

The "picture" in 刀 is a pretty big stretch, I've never been able to see it.  So, maybe you could repeat the trick for all the kanji.  Just imagine a way that the pack of dogs primitive looks like a pack of dogs (maybe each line is a separate dog and the bottom part is the longer leader of the pack?).  That's pretty ridiculous, but IMHO not that much more ridiculous than 刀 looking like a sword handle.

Cirion wrote:

As for 先 my problem with using cow my concern is that it's going to mess up my existing knowledge of the kanji.

I'll try tacking on an asterisk to 先 for cow and the kanji using turtle the same way we have to with square jewel and ivy.

If you took a native Japanese speaker and told them that 先 has a cow in it, would they:

A) Get so confused that their whole knowledge of Japanese collapses
B) Note it as a very minor trivia point and move on

Now why should it be any different for you or me?

liosama wrote:

And as for turtle, i use what some have suggested here, as Back, I've used it so far for all my kanji. But i still know(and note down mentally) that Heisig uses it as turtle, so wherever it is beneficial to use as turtle I'll use it, but it hasn't come across so far.

The turtle meaning is useful for me in 桃.  "Tree" + "Turtle" = "Peach" is very easy if you've ever played the Mario games.  "Tree" + "Portent" = "Peach", not so much, and this is one of those semi-ambiguous words you have to differentiate from pear and plum.

cerulean wrote:

I didn't have so much difficulty in that lesson..  But Lesson 16 or perhaps it's 17..  is just terrible for me.. Thanksgiving, fiesta, march, parade..   I don't care for these at all.

Somehow I just breezed through these.  Now, snares on the other hand.....   Maybe different people each have their own little trouble primitives.  Hmm, Cirion, if your two predestined "trouble primitives" are pack of wild dogs and cow, then you're pretty lucky

Last edited by snispilbor (2008 July 04, 3:18 pm)

snispilbor wrote:

The "picture" in 刀 is a pretty big stretch, I've never been able to see it.  So, maybe you could repeat the trick for all the kanji.  Just imagine a way that the pack of dogs primitive looks like a pack of dogs (maybe each line is a separate dog and the bottom part is the longer leader of the pack?).  That's pretty ridiculous, but IMHO not that much more ridiculous than 刀 looking like a sword handle.

I pictured it like the end of a wrap on the handle. 
Something like this:

Dude just rote learn these easy primitives.. You have to anyway because they come across so often in kanji that perfecting these (in writing) will aid in your speed of writing kanji overall, your neatness etc. Example, I drew the 'road' primitive about 300ish times till I got it looking nice, and even now i randomly practice a few primitives by rote, because Heisigs method is absolute bullshit (for primitives). Although they do look a little like 'a road' or 'a turtles back' you'll find yourself trying to perfect them that by the time you're on the 100th writing you go "oh shit this is rote learning isnt it"

Somethings have to be learned by rote (primitives) and what I don't like about Heisig is that he doesn't admit it himself.

I somewhat have no trouble to remember primitives. My problem is allways composing so I dont get this post at all.
My advice would be the one stehr did: Suck it up. Weirder and weirder primitives will show up.
Anyway. Keep the keyword for the kanjis separate from the primitives. This way you'll never get confused about the keywords.
For instance:
Storehouse and warehouse.
I noticed I was confusing then, so I build a mental memo: "in stores you sell stuff. selling slaves is wrong". This way I could allways identify storehouse from warehouse.

I never focus on abstract shapes or pictographs. I allways focus in the actual traces of the primitive. It takes 1-2 reviews in the first 10 minutes to sink, but it sinks.