Water vs Rice component

Index » RtK Volume 1

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Reply #1 - 2008 June 22, 3:25 am
jmignot Member
From: France Registered: 2006-03-03 Posts: 205

In the French version of RTK, the kanji 様 is described as tree + sheep + rice. In the description of the kanji Rice, it is explained that this altered form of the component is found in some compounds and should not be confused with Water because it has 5 strokes instead of 4 ? although this is "not entirely true". Confusing !!
On the other hand, I have found sources which simply relate the lower right part to the Water radical.
Is Heisig's choice to ascribe it to Rice sound? Is it somehow arbitrary or does it agree with the real origin of the character?

Reply #2 - 2008 June 22, 4:31 am
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

water has 4 strokes, "|", then "フ", then the "<" on the right side which is 2 strokes to the total of 4

grains of rice has 5, the middle "|", and the ">" 2 strokes and the "<" 2 strokes on both sides to total 5
its best to remember these by stroke order so you can remember how to write it
the sheep 羊 in this kanji doubles up with the grains of rice radical, you'll see tons of double ups
find stroke orders here http://www.yamasa.cc/members/ocjs/kanji … 3?OpenForm

Reply #3 - 2008 June 23, 1:04 am
jmignot Member
From: France Registered: 2006-03-03 Posts: 205

Thanks raseru, but this was not exactly my question.
What I wanted to know is whether the primitive contained in this kanji is actually related to rice or to water (in the sense of etymology, not mnemonics). Since anyhow it does not reproduce exactly either of those kanji as far as number/order of strokes is concerned, I would prefer to memorize the connection which makes more sense in Japanese.

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Reply #4 - 2008 June 23, 1:31 am
Katsuo M.O.D.
From: Tokyo Registered: 2007-02-06 Posts: 887 Website

The KanjiGen and one or two other sources I use for etymology relate that component to water rather than rice. (But there may well be some rival theories.)

Incidentally, 様 has an older variant form 樣 which displays the water element more clearly.

Reply #5 - 2008 June 23, 1:31 am
Thora Member
From: Canada Registered: 2007-02-23 Posts: 1691

I recall someone in another thread commenting (complaining?) that Heisig's rice grain primitive (I forget the exact name) is actually a variation of water. So I think you're on the right track if you prefer to use correct etymology. Perhaps someone with the right book might confirm...

Reply #6 - 2008 June 23, 1:38 am
WolfErrant Member
Registered: 2006-12-11 Posts: 17

I believe the "grains of rice" element is etymologically a variant of the water radical. For instance, the traditional variant of 様 is 樣 where the bottom element is clearly 永 (eternity). Heisig often discards etymology in favor of easier mnemonics. Here it does seem arbitrary. Water seems to me as valid a story element as rice but it works either way. Hope that helps!

Edit: Should have previewed... got scooped!

Last edited by WolfErrant (2008 June 23, 1:40 am)

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