Triddy
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-04-30
Posts: 19
Another concerned topic by me. That's 3 for 3.
Lately, in order to keep up with my mad rush to be done learning new characters so I can review the old freely at my leisure, my fail pile has been growing, substantially.
Is there any point at which the fail pile simply takes precedence over learning new characters? Mine is slowly creeping up to 150, which is just over 10% of my total characters.
dihutenosa
Member
Registered: 2007-07-24
Posts: 55
not that I'm a good example, but I finished the book and had roughly 5-600 failed cards, maybe more. After some reviews and a couple months of doing largely nothing, I managed to get up to 800.
Luckily, if you at least gave it a good effort the first time, relearning cards isn't all that tough. I decided a while ago to finally get those cards into shape and got everything down to zero in two weeks. Still working on getting everything into stack 4.
nest0r wrote:
I would not consider myself to be moving forward if I added new cards without having learned those that came before, it would feel like I was just using numbers to deceive myself.
I think part of my reasoning for not making my failed stack my #1 priority was that I needed those numbers/deception to keep the motivation going. If I wasn't moving forward because I was too busy cleaning up my past messes, I'd have quit long ago.
Sometimes, I need to just skip re-re-reviewing a group of kanji because (as odd as this sounds) I don't like them. I can then move on to the more "fun" kanji, get my confidence up, and go back and clean up the "boring" ones. Not sure if that makes any sense.
Savara
Member
From: London
Registered: 2007-09-08
Posts: 104
Website
I'll go past the 1600 point today... So far, I haven't had a day where I wouldn't get through my failed cards.
Yesterday and today the reviewing was horrible. Yesterday 37 failed cards, today 36. Ofcourse this is 'nothing' compared to 100+ failed cards... I suppose the trick is just, don't let them pile up. ...
(Lately I've been adding 30~40 new cards a day, and I hope to finish in something close to 10 days. Without a failed pile (well, only the 40~50 of the review that day, which I'll clear on the day so...).)
... Although I have to say, I don't go to school and only work when they need me (which isn't often) so I just have the *time* to do it this way.
Not sure what would be best if you simply don't have the time to do both... But I'm thinking "new cards" because honestly, when you've 'learned' something once, it's easier to re-learn it imo.
Shibo
Member
From: South Dakota, USA
Registered: 2008-01-19
Posts: 132
Yeah, I agree with nestOr in that fact that it's better to go on at a comfortable pace and not in a frenzied rush to get through everything. I think that it's best to go at a pace in which failed cards are kept at a relative minimum, while new material is still being learned. I struggle every day with wanting to add a ton more new kanji than I probably should, but I think the for me it's more important to *know* what I'm studying, so I force myself to slow down. What I sacrifice in speed, I make up for in kanji retention, which I think in the long run will help my studies. I could rush through it and say I know all the kanji,m but in the long run if I'm still spending hours on failed cards every day, I'm not sure how much I really know. It's like skimming a book, and "kinda" knowing most of the story at the end.
alyks
Member
From: Arizona
Registered: 2008-05-31
Posts: 914
Website
Well, the whole idea of using RTK is to remove the burden of rote memorization by applying mnemonics right? Well when you have kanji you can't remember and you try to remember it by drilling the flashcards, you're defeating the purpose of using mnemonics in the first place by resorting to rote...
Instead of thinking "I need to review the kanji" think "Is my mnemonic strong enough? Are my mental images clear enough? Or are things a blur?"
So when you fail a kanji, it's not that you forgot, but that you never remembered in the first place. Drilling them is resorting to rote. Instead go back and make your mnemonics stronger. If Heisig's mnemonic for that kanji too weak, then come up with one on your own. Or consult the stories section.
Really, the whole point is to use mnemonics. When you have a large fail pile, it might because you're not fully utilizing your mnemonics. I don't think so much as having a fail pile to conquer, but rather kanji I need to remember again.
Jarvik7
Member
From: 名古屋
Registered: 2007-03-05
Posts: 3946
@alyks:
I don't really know who you were replying to, but in case it was me, I'll clarify. I should have probably said that I treat the failed stack as a "new kanji" stack and not an expired stack. My system for studying is: quiz from failed stack, quiz from new stack, quiz from expired stack, review/modify stories for anything remaining/new in the failed stack (to be quizzed the next day), and then finally study/add new kanji. Some people seem to fear the failed stack because they think it'll eat up all their time, but quizzing the failed stack and redoing the stories takes maybe 15 minutes for me.
I don't really get what nukemarine & others are saying about forgetting about the failed pile so that you can feel progress by adding new cards. If you keep on top of the failed stack it takes no time at all since it should never grow past 30 or so unless you have a bad day. Also, modifying stories takes less time than making new ones. Just recklessly pushing ahead without regard to your failed kanji and then "finishing" the book with a large failed stack is just lying to yourself in my opinion. If the foundation is weak the building will crumble right?
Last edited by Jarvik7 (2008 June 01, 2:09 am)
alyks
Member
From: Arizona
Registered: 2008-05-31
Posts: 914
Website
Oh hey, yeah, I agree. Modifying mnemonics is the way to go. But what I mean about changing them, is if it's just way to vague to work. You should only change a mnemonic when you can't remember the one you have at all.
Anyway, I should clarify too. I was really trying to help with the problem of having a large review stack. I kept mine low by making sure the mnemonics were good. Since the only times when I didn't have a near 100% retention, were those times when I thought the mnemonic was too vague, I figure the key to retention is in solid mnemonics.
This probably also clarifies what I said about using traditional flashcards. Since I rely solely on remembering mnemonics (since they're much easier), and not trying to remember the actual kanji (don't think it's bad, worked out pretty well), using select groups of kanji cards to remember specifics on the strokes works best for me. Especially since I'm on the go a lot and don't have access to a computer.
Last edited by alyks (2008 June 01, 2:23 am)
timcampbell
Member
From: 北京
Registered: 2007-11-04
Posts: 187
I'm in with Jarvik7 on this.
One of the principles behind the SRS is to keep the kanji in short term memory long enough for your brain to transfer it to long term - you can do that by drilled rote memorization as well, but Heisig and an SRS are simply much more efficient. If your failed pile gets too big, and you wait too long to review them, then you're not really reworking those stories to strengthen them, but starting again from scratch. Your brain has lost the short term memory and all the original work you did was wasted. Sure, you can still pound away and let the failed stack grow, but your progress just won't be as efficient as it could be.
Anyway, I don't consider a kanji learned until it's in long term memory - ie, in the final stack. Kanji in the early stacks I see as kanji in the process of being learned, so throwing in a bunch of new ones and damn the failed stack just doesn't work out well in the long run. You will still have to work on those kanji at some point, and not letting too much time pass until you get around to doing it keeps the process faster and much more efficient. In the long run you will spend less time learning and reviewing kanji.
And yes, I let my failed stack grow to about 400 before figuring this one out 
rich_f
Member
From: north carolina
Registered: 2007-07-12
Posts: 1708
Same here. The only reason I have any cards in my fail pile is if I failed them that day, or if I failed them again the next day. The first thing I do every day is review the fail pile and clear all of them that I can. There's nothing wrong with taking a few days to clear it and tighten up some weak stories.
When I was going through RTK1, I took a week off from adding stories to clear out bad stories and focus more on improving my retention rates, and I still managed to finish in 3 months. Finishing with a huge fail pile isn't really finishing, it's just putting off learning things you have trouble learning, and letting them form a giant pile of things you have trouble with.
It's sort of like eating all of the food you like first, then saving the nasty food for dessert. If you get it out of the way while you're doing the book, finishing will feel more like, well, finishing, instead of going through a bunch of reviews, failing them, finishing the book, then staring a giant fail pile in the proverbial eye. That would have demotivated me more than taking an extra couple of weeks to finish the book. It's easier to just pick off the hard ones one at a time, rather than let them form a giant clump at the very end.
And you also need to keep in mind that "finishing" is really only the start of the whole thing. If you want to keep them in there, you're going to be reviewing for a long time after you finish the book, while you start to learn the on/kun yomi. So I'd say it's better to make sure that the ones in there are fixed more firmly, IMO.
sutebun
Member
From: Oregon
Registered: 2007-06-29
Posts: 172
My opinion: the "failed" pile serves two different purposes depending on the stage of your study.
If you're working on finishing RTK or have only finished recently, those are things you need to focus on and fix.
If you've finished RTK for awhile, have been keeping up for awhile, and most of your cards have long intervals, then the failed pile is a lot more fluid I believe. Cards will move in and out of there. Of course, you should never ignore it and leave them to pile up. But there shouldn't be stress about them either; you'll fail cards sometimes and you just need to start them over again.
I'm happy having 95ish % down. To me, this means I always have 95% of my cards at intervals of over 3 or 4 weeks at least. There will be "failed" cards, working their way back up to higher intervals, but as long they remain a small number, that's fine.
Nukemarine
Member
From: 神奈川
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2347
To be honest, it's this discussion about fail piles and adding new cards that had me start a thread called "The RTK Lite" option. With RTK, you either add cards at the cost of a growing failed pile or concentrate on reviewing failed cards at the cost of adding new ones . Let's face it, you have a certain amount of time. The only thing you SHOULD NOT compromise on is reviewing all due cards. Failed and New Cards are about the same thing (as pointed out above) when you're doing your first run through RTK.
Remember though, ONCE you stop adding new cards you can concentrate solely on the failed stack and see that it quickly begins to disappear in short time. It's from that experience that I advocate to never stop adding new cards. Of course, I say balance it with restudying failed cards.
Anyway, if you go the RTK lite route, do the first 1k cards (takes about a month I'd guess). Finish up your failed stack. Begin your formal Japanese study (such as the awesome UBJG or KO2001). Now, every week add in another 30 new cards. In about 1 year or so into your formal study, you've added the rest of RTK1 and RTK3. By that time, you should be close to fluent anyway. The problem of a failed stack should be minimal.
rich_f
Member
From: north carolina
Registered: 2007-07-12
Posts: 1708
Well, I will say this about KO2001-- it does do a good job of getting the compounds in there. It just takes time and effort. And just like you have to balance your fail pile and your add pile with RTK, you'll have to balance your review pile and your learning pile with this as well. I find I can only add a certain number of KO sentences a day and still have good retention. I usually do 5 kanji worth, so ~15 sentences, going both ways. I'm right around 150 now, and it has taken some time to get there, but I notice a difference in reading already, just from picking up all of the extra vocab you get from it. I *really* want to pick up the pace, but it's hard to do it without sacrificing success rates, and making your review pile grow too big in Anki. (If I add too much, I wind up spending hours just reviewing stuff that's due.)
