I was at *exactly* the stage you're talking about with Japanese about this same time last year. I found myself thinking things like, "I've studied for so long...but WHEN will I be able to say that I am 'fluent'?" "When will this grammar make sense to me?" "How do I keep the definitions of these particle-words straight?" Instead of pursuing Japanese because I found it fun, useful, etc., it became almost like a dread/burden, which is not good! What I did was take a break from it for awhile, to re-evaluate why learning it was important to me in the first place. I think that part of my personal frustration came from going about learning it the wrong way too many times previously (which was about 5 years ago, I think: 1st) with romaji! oi... 2) with too much emphasis on reading/writing and not enough on speaking, 3) without an SRS, etc., etc. Despite this, I had come away with a fairly large vocabulary, knowledge of about 500 or so kanji, reading/writing kana without trouble, and understanding the basics of Japanese grammar. A couple months ago, I decided to start up my Japanese studies again, this time with a better approach...with an emphasis on fun and enjoyment. I'm a pretty serious person when it comes to studying, so this idea of 'fun' was a bit unusual at first (lol). My errors previously included obsessing over grammar points and the meaning of particles, making 800+ kanji flash cards before I was even confident in my understanding of written or Japanese, and hopelessly wondering when this mythical peak of 'fluency' would occur, when I could finally say "YES, I FINALLY UNDERSTAND JAPANESE!"

I think it is important to remember that, when progressing through a foreign language, you will always have more to learn. That being said, there are various ways that a person can gauge where they stand, in terms of spoken/written comprehension. For instance, the levels established by the ALTE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associatio … _in_Europe

A big problem of mine, which still creeps in from time to time, is a fixation on reaching comprehension of some number of sentences, some number of kanji, just this one more lesson, etc., etc. I wanted to learn it *all*. But, I know now this is unrealistic. The best thing that I did, that you can do for yourself as well, is outline specific plan for study which is shaped around what you have learned so far in review/practice and what would be a realistic goal of learning next, say in the next 3-6 months or so. I've recently come across the AJATT website. Though I don't always agree with everything, the blog posts and methods it discusses are interesting: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about

Also, are you using an SRS (like Anki) at the time? This can really be great for review and introducing new material without getting bogged down. A good way to digest grammar is through reading and practice and not trying to memorize rules. For instance, I've enjoyed reading books and writing essays and stories since I was in 2nd grade, but when it came to homework involving grammar rules...it took me forever to finish and oftentimes I got it wrong anyway!  Japanese is not easy, but it doesn't have to be a pain, either. The reason I wanted to learn Japanese in the first place stemmed from my love of video games, manga, anime, and the rest of Japan's culture. It's a place I hope to visit within the next couple of years, and I would love to be able to listen, communicate, and be understood, not get hung up whatever of phrases and vocabulary I had done.  When I see a sign in kanji on a building, will I be wanting to pour over the 音読みand 訓読み that I've stored for them in my mind, meanwhile thinking, "What does that mean, again?" No! I will only be able to be truly comfortable with Japanese when I can relax with it and *let it be*. I know that probably sounds funny, but I'm making much more progress now than I have in the other 5 years I was studying it. I've finally got Pimsleur, and I'm listening to those lessons everyday. Even though it's pretty easy and I knew most of those words already, it is already helping me immensely with comprehension of spoken Japanese; the pacing, the rise and fall of the accent, etc. I also can't believe I didn't start Heisig's book earlier! I'm doing those lessons almost daily as well. When I'm finished, I'm probably going to return to the textbook: Japanese For Everyone, continue using Anki, etc. Long post aside, , I hope it was of some help! Don't despair! I've been there, and it sucks. Formulate a plan that suits your needs and helps you not get burned out!

EDIT: I often listen to Japanese music, try to read articles on Japanese websites, play Japanese-language video games. These things are fun, pretty much essential components, to add on top of normal study, but I am often frustrated at the fact that I often only understand pieces and not entire sentences or passages. When this is the case, I take a few sentences at a time and plug them into Anki after I find out their meaning, so I can slowly but surely find my way through it. The more often you do this, you'll find that you can add more and more sentences at a time! Pretty soon, you'll have a whole article down pat, this way. Progress is progress, no matter how slow/medium/fast it is. Learning a subject, be it a language or otherwise, is made more do-able by finding what method is most efficient for *you* personally!

Last edited by MoogleFan (2008 April 27, 3:30 pm)

alljapaneseallthetime.com is really something that should help boosting your self-esteem (as it did for me) - Khatsumoto's a really good inspirational blogger, with some nifty techniques on how to learn the language(s) efficiently while having fun

I personally would love to get to a certain degree of fluency in Japanese, although I can't say I managed to do that with English, which is scary a bit. And since I didn't manage to do so in my last 8 years (I'm 20 now), I sometimes doubt I can advance in any other language, especially as Japanese is of completely different sort. Oh well, time and practice will tell...

Btw, I remember as I've been learning English from the 5th grade, there had been a certain 'click' in the upcoming years. I just started to see how it works, mostly thanks to  entertainment sources I've been watching or listening to. I too hope this 'click' for the Japanese will come soon.. ^^

The biggest battles in learning this language (or in any major endeavor) are not those you have with the language itself. The biggest hurdles are the internal struggles you have to overcome along the way... "Am I doing this right?", "Is there a better way to study?", "Am I wasting my time", "When will I be fluent?", "Is this even possible?". Everyone knows these questions, and it's really easy to obsess endlessly about them.

I'll refer you to one particular post by Khatz that really nails it...

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl … d-hurry-up

These is also a zen proverb which helps me when I feel those pressures...

"Before enlightenment, I chopped wood and carried water.
After enlightenment, I chopped wood and carried water."

So slow down, take a deep breath, let go of all of your thoughts, expectations, fears and worries, pick up your favourite study source, and focus on just enjoying the experience. No expectations. Fluency is a myth. Enjoy it now.

I do know how you feel, I frequently struggle with anxiety while I study.  Here are a few strategies that I use to combat it.

Have you tried a meditative approach to studying?  Not for all of your study time, of course, but I`ve found that it helps me if I do it for the first 10 or 15 minutes or so (sometimes much more or a little less - it depends on what I feel like).
It`s best for me when I`m practicing kanji, but there`s no reason that it could not work for any part of your studying.  To do this, I find a way to direct all of my attention to writing kanji. If you find this hard, first direct all of your attention to something else, like your breathing or that cobweb in the corner or one of those distracting thoughts that`s running through your brain, and then slowly move it to writing kanji.  Notice the intricacies in each stroke - feel the vibrations of the pen moving on paper through your fingers.  Take as long as you like.  Sometimes I tell myself that I will write 10 kanji, and become progressively more focused and relaxed with each one.  When I come out of a meditation session like this, I am always calm and prepared for studying. 

I dont think of this as studying - I think of it as meditation.  But I often find that the material that I use to meditate is what ends up sticking.

A few other ideas.  Have you heard of brainwave generator? http://www.bwgen.com/  It sounds like a nonsense hippy approach to concentration, but I have found it useful before.

I also find that listening to classical music sometimes helps with study anxiety - usually something baroque, with a consistent rhythm and no unexpected dynamics.

That`s all I`ve got for now.  Will post if I think of more.  And please let us know if you find something that works for you.

Last edited by blackstockc (2008 April 27, 8:24 pm)

I don't think the question is "Will I ever crest the hill?" but rather "Is there even a crest to the hill?"

I've been studying for about five years now.  I live in Japan. I can do most things on my own - I set up my internet, can deal with questions and changes with my cell phone contract, can carry on a conversation on just about anything.

But every day I still come across things that I don't know.  Is it easy to get frustrated? Sure.

But the point is, and I tell my students this too, is to NOT get freaked out when you hear a word you don't understand.  Instead, focus on what you do understand, your brain will fill in the rest.   

This is why I'm a bit skeptical of things like the AJATT method, is because people tend to get stuck in a "How many sentences do I have to memorize before I can do X?"  "How many kanji do I need to memorize before I can play X video game?"  Focus on what you've learned and how to utilize it.... not how much more you have to learn. 

In my own personal case, I don't think it was until after studying abroad that I felt like I could really understand a lot of things and use the language effectively... but I really think that was more of a confidence booster than anything... because looking back on it now there was so much that I didn't understand then    But there's one thing you learn when  you're forced to use the language like that... and that's even if you mess up a word.... or screw up you grammar a little bit a native speaker of the language is still going to be able to follow you.  Use what you know and don't worry about making mistakes.... because you're going to make them regardless of how many sentences or vocabulary words or whatever you've learned.  Getting to that downhill point is more about rolling with the punches and learning from your mistakes than it is cramming vocab and things into your brain.

(Also.. what helped me more than anything was just to do a lot of listening.... tv, music, converstations with friends, you name it.... you'll begin to learn what feels natural)

I think there are 2 major things you have to do to resolve your study woes.

First and foremost, fix your attitude. Remember that your worth as a human being has NO connection to how well you can speak Japanese. It has NO connection to how well your study techniques are or how you learn. It has NO connection to how many mistakes you make or how many times you fail. To be honest it sounds like your goal is to become worthy.  IE If I get through this hardship and become fluent I will become worthy as a human being.

Take it from someone who has been down that path. It never ends and you will never be satisfied. You will never reach a level that brings you satisfaction because you will always focus on your weaknesses and that there are people who are so much better than you. Even if you do rise to the top, it won't fill you or make you happy. You will probably just focus on your other weaknesses as a human being (like I did). (Over-) achievement is no substitute for real emotion growth, which is actually what it takes to become happy and satisfied.

Also remember that people's worth is almost never 0 or 1. Most people are around a .5. You are not a 0 if you do badly at Japanese and someone who does well is not a 1. It is just one of many many things that make us who we are.

I am living in Japan and have being going through a lot of personal growth. Recently due to this my desire to study Japanese dropped suddenly. Why? Because I stopped evaluating my personal worth on my successes or failures with the language! When I managed something I would feel like a good human being. When I failed at something I would feel worthless. When this incentive went I suddenly stopped being interested in the language. Now though I am getting back into it for different reasons. For the original reasons that I thought I was studying. So I can meet many different people and for the joy of relating in this strange way.

In terms of books that really helped me:

Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch (Explains how intimate relationships work. Is useful for any relationship problems and for growing yourself. If you get into this there is another book called ressurecting sex, which is basically more of the same. His concepts are so contrary to popular culture its hard to fully get him after reading two books on more or less the same topic)
Manhood by Steve Biddulph. (Basically about being a man and how western society greatly under trains men in the business of being men)

I would read them in this order as they do conflict slightly and I feel Passionate Marriage is the more right.

It may seem crazy, but I think reading these two books would be a good investment for your Japanese. Just remember that you will learn slower if your are anxious and constantly beating yourself up. Don't make your study a part of your self esteem. You'll be happier for one!

Secondly, as has been mentioned, check your study method and materials. Stuff I would recommend:

Making sense of Japanese by Jay Rubin - This is IMO the only absolutely must read for native English speakers studying Japanese. He explain the grammar that English doesn't really have (such as WA and GA) with awesome clarity.

Basic (and Intermediate) rules of Japanese Grammar by Makin and Tsutsui - Explains Japanese grammar very well and compares similar grammar.

13 secrets of Japanese for speaking fluent Japanese - Some of the secrets suck, some are quite good. This book is good for taking the Japanese you know and utilising it more.

In terms of method, I would recommend obviously RTK. I think generally a focus on reading is a good technique to break out of the pristine world of the Japanese textbook and its example grammar sentences. I'm going to give the all Japanese all the time method a shot once I finish RTK, which to me looks pretty cool. Remember that getting good at a language is not about learning the grammar perfectly and then drawing on a large vocab to produce poetically powerful language. It is about regurgitating language and initially sentences that you have heard or read. And since you have all the time in the world to read, it is easier to really absorb these sentences. You can get things like rikaichan and furigana injector (currently windows only) for firefox to help you with kanji if you don't know enough of them yet.

Try thinking as much as possible in your head in Japanese. You don't need someone to talk to to practice Japanese! For example, for a learner of English they might think:

What will I eat for dinner? Hmm. I ate a hamburger yesterday. It was very delicious. I did a lot of exercise today, so I want something healthy. The supermarket has good sandwiches, I will eat them for dinner!

and so on. It doesn't have to be so innocuous either. You can think about serious stuff and still use Japanese. As you keep doing this you will find your reproduction speed will increase and increase. As for me, I eventually developed a very strong Japanese mode, where Japanese comes out naturally. I have been in this mode and met a English speaker and then translated the Japanese responses that came to mind back into English to speak to him! (I have also come to say あのう and え〜と naturally rather than um, which can be embarrassing when I am teaching English!) I am not, and especially then was not at a very high level of Japanese. From doing this I think my speaking, fluency, accent and Japanese like Japanese is generally better than those that are higher level than me.

Another good way to use this same technique, is when you say something in English, think about how you would say it in Japanese. For example asking for the bill at a restaurant. You have endless chances to test your Japanese level, find weaknesses and resolve them like this.

I would generally avoid getting to immersed in English literature, especially if you have the chance to speak a lot of Japanese such as doing a homestay. I have stopped reading novels for a year even though I love them, as I get so immersed in the English that I can almost feel my Japanese receding. This has been a painful choice for me! Also I generally watch anime and Japanese movies with no subtitles, even though I would enjoy them more with them.

Similarly, you need to find a situation where you can speak or use Japanese where you don't have the option of reverting to English if things aren't going well. You will improve very slowly if you only say things that you know how to say. Your fluency grows when you try to say stuff you are not sure about. This is when you combine grammar and words to fudge new meaning. You will probably fail miserably, but this is a necessary part of improving.

Infact, learning IS making mistakes. The more you make the faster you will learn (assuming you eventually realise this or someone points them out). If you have Japanese classes, jump in! Speak! Make many mistakes! This will probably be good for your self esteem as you realise this doesn't devalue you as a human being as well as helping you improve much faster.

Express yourself! You are not learning language to talk about the weather. They greatest thrill from speaking a second language is saying things that are worthwhile. Helping people with advice, saying your opinion. With this, try and keep focused on the meaning of what you say, not the delivery. Even if you have to point and draw like crazy, it is a joy to convey a sentiment to someone and have a cross cultural experience of understanding and respect. I believe it is wise to shift the focus from becoming "fluent" at Japanese, to interacting with real Japanese people and making oneself heard in this strange culture. It takes the focus from your level to what you can achieve with what you know.

In terms of words, consider word remembering tricks (mnemonics?). An example みかん　＝ me can, as in I can eat all those left over mandarins at work. I CAN! Or - どくしん　＝ dog jin. All those people who look like dogs are too ugly to find wives! Also don't bother learning words that you will never hear. Don't learn aggravate before you learn get angry. There are only so many words you can jam into your head each day so make them as common/useful as possible.

Have fun. Be a dick. Use your Japanese for humor. I used to learn words and grammar purely on its usefulness to make (bad) jokes. If you can lighten up the way you interact the load of learning the language will also lighten, but I suppose not everyone is a silly bugger like me.

Remember that someone Japanese is not better than you because of their language ability. This may seem obvious, but for me sometimes it is hard to forget the awe. I liken learning a language from a native speaker to learning basketball as an adult with not previous experience from Michael Jordan (and then immediately playing in the NBA). They are at a level that you can in all likelihood never reach and they do it effortlessly while you fumble. It can be hard not to be awed sometimes. Just remember that they are not special or better than you because of this and as mentioned earlier language ability does not relate to self worth. Don't forget your own amazing English ability.

Lastly, (damn this is long) remember that no matter what you are going to be disappointed and frustrated countless times. The major difference between people that become good at languages or not is their ability to deal with these feelings. So many times I have made mistakes and felt stupid. So many times I have not understood what people said to me. Sometimes they say wow your Japanese is good, then I fail to understand the next 5 things they say feeling continually more stupid. This is just normal and happens to everyone. It is not a reflection on the learner but on the emotional load of the task.

Good luck and don't be afraid to quit if you decide that it isn't for you.

Nice posts
I have been studyiing japanese for about 5-6 years. All I can say now is it's not an easy language! But not beeing an easy language is what makes it so interesting. As a portuguese native speaker I can easy learn spanish, italian or french. After so many years studying english and japanese I know I can be fluent in latin languages like spanish or french in less then one year of study. So why do I not study those languages right now and become kind of a polyglot? Just because those languages are not interesting, charming, cool, etc., as japanese language is for me! If I was going to learn another language it will be Chinese, just because I find it very cool! I just dont believe when I see those Chinese guys speaking to each other. How can they understant this ******* language, with all those tones and whatever?!?!?! What I mean is: You have to like the language! This is the firt step! Once you like it, enjoy it! Learn and enjoy what you have learned! Always remember you are not a native speaker! As someone said: fluency is a myth! Really few people achieve native like fluency, and usually because they had some big advantage. I have a friend who went to Japan to play Softball, she is form Brazilian Sofball Team. In Japan she had to practice Sofball every day and also go to japanese school. Only japanese friends, no brazilians, no americans, all japanese all the time! After two years in real all japanese all the time mode even her portuguese became "katai". The result was that after three years in Japan she passed JLPT 1kyu! As I said, this is an exception! Even I study japanese every day, I am not surrounded by japanese language 24/7 and I don't intend to be. I just keep studying. Last year a faild JLPT 2kyu (58%), but it does not bother me. I just keep going, keep going...

I am playing some japanese ps2 RPGs and sometimes I can understand everything. But sometimes I cannot understand NOTHING! This is really unencouraging, but the best we can do is just forget it and keep going, keep going... It sound funy, but japanese seems like a "way of life", more then a simple foreign language, haha. I have practicing kendo for 6 years and is similar to japanese and some way. What I like about kendo is that you always have something to improve. It is not something you can finish, not something you can say "Ok, I finished it, it is done".  After 6 years I will finally take the exame for 初段 (shodan, first-grade). There are actually 8 grades and I know it is impossible for me to get to 八段. But the thing is: I dont thing like "I have to get 八段". Instead I think like: "I am going to 初段, this is my goal now". Once I reach it I can think about the next. Japanese is the same, my goal now is ２級. I almost did it last year and I am definitely going to do it this year. After that I will think about the next. So define your goals and just keep going!

You said you are doing stuff from JLPT 3 and 4. So this can be your goal now!

Also I recommend read thing like All Japanese All The Time and Kanji Clinic.

See ya!

You are right. By "Fluency is a myth" we mean the native-like fluency, beeing able to understand and speak about almost anything. If you see fluency as beeing able to speak the language smoothly, without pausing to think every moment, it becomes a reachable goal. I can say I am fluent in both japanese and english, even though a make lots of mistakes in both languages, I can keep a conversation without problems, or write in a forum in a comprehensible way

I remember struggling for a while...I was a beginner for such a long time, but those complicated kanji in JLPT3 were a real barrier(along with my irregular study habits).
Anyway, when I realized how many years it had been since I started studying (4-5) I was pretty disappointed...and so I crammed all the kanji meanings so I could finally get it gear.

That probably brought me to around the same level as you... I had a good grasp of grammar, but my vocab was too low for jumping into real Japanese texts. So I entered the unknown words from JLPT3, about half of RTK2 and unknown words from a few different textbooks(mainly Basic Kanji Book 2) into an SRS. That really jump started things.

I think once you 'finish' being a beginner, you can find a genre you really like, and focus on that. For example, if you want to improve in all areas, it'll take ages to get all that vocabulary down. But if you focus on say, newspapers, the vocab is more limited and repeated, so you can make more progress. Myself, I hate news, so I read short stories and play RPGs. I write down and study pretty much every word I don't know, so that my vocabulary increases in a useful way, and since I stick to fiction, I'm more likely to see those words again. I'm still coming across new words all the time, but I can enjoy my favorite genres...

As an extra note, if you like anime(or dramas), watch lots of it! It's really helped my listening, vocab, and understanding of casual speech. I use subtitles...but I don't know, I find it more helpful if I can understand the parts I otherwise wouldn't.

Virtua_Leaf wrote:

I'm really anxious to get to a stage when I can understand Japanese.

What does this mean exactly?  To me it sounds so vague that it would be near impossible to accomplish, or at least take a lifetime. In other words, setting a goal like "understand Japanese" could be setting yourself up for failure. 
My suggestion is to set clear definite goals that you can tell if you have progressed or not.  For example, finish RTK.  Understand such-an-such movie without subtitles.  Or read a page of ___manga.  Then work on those goals that you struggle with, and make new goals when you have accomplished them.   They can be long term (JLPT 1) or short term goals (study 5 minutes a day this week), but they should be goals that you can easily determine whether or not you have accomplished it.
Even after studying Japanese for 5, 10 years, you will probably still want to "understand Japanese" (better).  But if you don't have specific goals, you could just end up treading water.  Also, if you have goals set that you have accomplished, you can look back when you get frustrated and think, "I learned RTK, I understand totoro now without subtitles, and I can read yotsubato with no problem.  What should I accomplish next?"  (joesgoals.com is a great for keeping track of goals)

PS great thread.  It's not often that you can find a recommendation for manga, meditation, and improving intimacy on the same thread .
and がんばってね！

As I was learning japanese, I realised that it was harder than I tought at first. And the more I learned, the more I realised how it's actually even harder than i previously tought it was. I'm sure some people will manage to learn japanese up to a native level, but that's definitely an exceptional achievement. That doesn't mean that japanese is useless just because you will probably never reach "fluency". I guess the point of learning japanese is using it, so as long as you can use it in a meaningful and interesting way then it's worth it. Going on a trip to Japan with a JLPT3 level is definitely a different experience than if you don't know any japanese. But since Japan is kind of far away, not everybody can afford to go there that often. That's when you can lose focus of why exactly you're learning that language. You can cling to your dream and keep on studying, and I actually I think you should, but there are a whole bunch of other more important stuff too. So I think sometimes it's not a bad thing to put your japanese studies on the backburner. Anyway, just my 2c.

Last edited by Magnadoodle (2008 April 29, 7:31 pm)

SRS = spaced repetition system

For example... the review system used on this site, Anki, Mnemosyne, iFlash, Supermemo etc.