This whole 'messing up the SRS System with seeing Kanji before the time is up' is somewhat stupid anyway, I guess. It might be true in a very limited way - let's say you're currently working on RtK and checking out your newly added cards every day.

But in the end you will see Kanji in normal Japanese text the whole time. Well, the whole point of learning them is to understand them in the end, of course. So every time I read a sentence in Japanese, that has Kanji in them I would "**** up" the SRS. Arguing like that is a bit daft.

Gotta love the censoring. o_O

Last edited by Airymon (2008 April 18, 4:40 pm)

But that's not the point here. By that logic reading Japanese text is already messing up the SRS system, because you will inevitably 'review' the characters more often, than you have to, according to the SRS.

So how long are you supposed to stick to the SRS then? 2 weeks after finishing? 3 months? 12 months? To be frank: No one here does actually stick to this system after RtK1. Some not even before that. Some inevitably not even before that.

It's true that (almost) all continue to do the reviews, but you'll do a lot more than that. Which is imo, already working against the 'SRS rule'. So by that standart everyone here obviously screws up. This is of course bullshit. You can't learn something with an SRS just to use the SRS on and on and on and stick to it's schedule ONLY. You'll inevitably use those Kanji out of the SRS context, and by that, you're working against the system, how some here aparently argue. It's obvious: you're not keeping to the suggested review intervals (after all, reading a sign written in Kanji or a website, news article or whatever is already some kind of reviewing, you have to admit).

However important the intervals of an SRS may be, they're not an ultimate rule - and if they are, they're far from realistic - at least for Kanji purposes.

I know that this whole statement is also more or less unrealistic and doesn't stand on a very solid foundation, because you're intended to use the SRS especially for those characters you won't see every few days, but at the same time I'm sure this posting can show the flaw to the idea of this "absolute rule" some here seem to defend.

Anyway, just my 2ct

Last edited by Airymon (2008 April 18, 7:37 pm)

I have read that it doesn't hurt to include kanji to keyword cards in your deck (if Anki even has the feature, why would it be very harmful anyway?).  When I was at around the 500 point in Heisig, I started realizing that I had the same problem you have and turned on this Anki option for each card.  I found that at first it was extremely difficult for me to remember each kanji's keyword, but within 2 at least two reviews of each kanji, I knew them upon immediately looking at them.  As soon as you start this sort of "thinking in backwards," you wire your brain to do it and you're used to it like that.  At least, that's how it was in my situation.

Last edited by Nuriko (2008 April 18, 11:59 pm)

I don't think kanji to keyword is necessary if you are reading or doing something else also.  What is important is that you look up and review the story for any kanji that you forget, each and every time.  It's pretty easy using this website.  A review is a review, and contrary to SRS dogma, if you see a kanji every day it will stick very well in your memory.

I never really thought that being able to go from kanji to keyword was all that important, anyways.  After all, the keywords can hardly be called accurate and comprehensive definitions.  I always just assumed that the keywords were there to give each kanji a "hook" in your brain, like a name rather than a real meaning, and once you were familiar with the kanji then you could proceed to hook readings, words, and actual meanings to those.

Nukemarine wrote:

Heisig did not write to NOT do Kanji to Keyword. He wrote to not ONLY do Kanji to Keyword, AND that Keyword to Kanji SHOULD cover your basic needs for memory. Note that this is in dealing with the inefficient flashcards and not the streamlined SRS that we all use.

From 5th ed, page 43.

James Heisig wrote:

"Also, when you review, REVIEW ONLY FROM THE KEY WORD TO THE KANJI, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND."

I dont review kanji->keyword.  Like someone said it's just a hook.  Did you know... you remember every dream perfectly...  the only reason you can't recall your dreams.. is there's no hook.  No clear path from where you're sitting right now to what you were doing in your dream last night.

About the SRS intervals.  The way I see it.  The SRS aims to optimize memorization time with respect to number of reviews.  So you could think of it optimizing the ratio, memorization time / number of reviews (though it's probably not THAT simple a formula).  If you JUST wanted to optimize memorization time, it'd probably be faster to just sit there reviewing the same card over and over all day, but that'd be horrifically inefficient in terms of number of reviews.  The point is though.  Any "extra accidental" reviews, can only help.  Just consider the Roman characters.  We review them ceaselessly, and they are very firmly burnt into our long term memories.

One thing to remember though.  There's no absolute "wrong way".  No habit so bad that it'll ultimately stop you.  I mean, take any habit you like.. even, randomly juggling Heisig's keywords...  if a kid growing up in Japan used RTK1 and used your bad habit.. they'd still effortlessly gain native fluency.

ファブリス wrote:

zdude255 wrote:

Reviewing this during RTK1 probably isn't that important, even if you're not building the association as strongly as you'd like to.

I agree. Please don't swamp yourself with kanji > keyword reviews until you have completed RtK 1. You are only going to give yourself more trouble and increase the chance to go off track and give up.

Here, I think that is a valid point. I was getting upto 100 reviews a day with just Keyword to Kanji while going through RTK (and hand upto 400 in my missed stack at times). I can see how having double that thanks to reverse cards would be over daunting. I'll defer to this point for now on.

So, for Kanji to Keyword via Anki:

Finish RTK as a Keyword to Kanji (on RevTK naturally). Utilize the export RevTK data to Anki method (once the plug-in author updates for .9.x Anki). How to do it best is load up a new Anki Heisig deck. Supspend all RTK3 facts (unless you have done them). Create Kanji to Keyword card types (recognition card types). Catch up all cards to facts which now should show 6000 cards (3000 facts), of which you have 4084 cards for the 2042 facts. Once the author posts a new plug-in, use that so that your review times match up for RevTK (no tedious redoing all kanji upfront).

SPACE it so that keyword to kanji shows up first (production then recognition). With the spacing system Anki has, you won't see the opposite card so close to each other.

Oh yeah, maybe utilize the stroke order font set. I like the RevTK plug-in that linked to the stroke orders, but I don't think Anki has that.