thermal
Member
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2007-11-30
Posts: 399
I have a Japanese girlfriend and we speak 95% in Japanese. This works out quite nicely and it's a great way to improve. However, I am having an ongoing issue.
Basically, I can't decide which form of self address to use with her as I feel that none of them suit me.
boku - Too boyish. I am not meek and generally will not pretend with people. I feel this is too cute.
ore - Hard to explain but it just feels like using ore is stamping ones own reality on those around you. It's too macho for me. I have friends that are quite gentle who use this though (not sure if they use it with their girlfriends).
watashi - Obviously too polite. I generally use this with her as the best of a poor set of choices, but it feels weird using it with someone who is close in a relaxed environment.
If I use ore she complains that it doesn't suit me, which I generally agree. I am fairly reflective and can be anal really. However, I suspect that a big part of it for her is that I am a gaijin. She also believes that boku doesn't suit me.
Anyway, I don't really care so much what she thinks. I believe I must choose for myself, but I want to decide for good if possible.
What do you use? Do you think ore can be used without the oppressive overtones? What is your take on boku and ore?
johnzep
Member
From: moriya, ibaraki
Registered: 2006-05-14
Posts: 373
just try to leaving out the first person particle more, if you use 95% japanese with the ladyfriend, I'm sure you're good at dropping subjects, but even with that in mind, if this is a big problem for you, you could probably drop them more.
if you want something more neutral just use watashi or boku for very common stuff...i.e. だれの？→ 私の。 /僕の。 watashi might be more formal, but if you are more comfortable with it for now, I think it's ok, while you sort out the other stuff.
You might also try working uchi into your repertoire too. Not 100% sure though, might be a little feminine. I often here girls/women say it along the lines of "who, me?" → "うち？"....but I think it is ok for guys when referring to things like "my family", "my apartment", "my job", etc.
I know one person whose kid likes to use おいら...though it is probably too kiddie, i was told it is also apparently the preferred "I" pronoun of talking animals...and then I noticed that all the talking penguins in the mario games I play use おいら (so you probably don't want that one...but it is sorta interesting)
And just use ore for stuff when you want to be emphatic, proud, or arrogant (i.e. think of sentences where the I gets stressed in English....for example "I'm going to do it" vs. "I'm going to do it"...and if you want to kick it up a notch there is also ore-sama. But I mainly use this as a joke with my girlfriend because she knows I think it is funny...for example, I get a strike in Wii Bowling..."俺様はすごいな。? or something stupid like that...I can't vouch for serious usage.
I think your right part of the reason she doesn't like ore is because you are a gaikokujin...partly because maybe it just seems odd and partly because you haven't mastered the subtle usage of all the personal pronoun choices (I know I haven't).
Oh and you can probably get some mileage out of jibun too
(oh and this is all for talking to your girlfriend...stick with watashi when speaking to your higher ups)
Last edited by johnzep (2008 April 17, 11:25 am)
DrJones
Member
From: Spain
Registered: 2007-12-19
Posts: 209
You can also refer to yourself using your own name instead of a pronoun. To us, it feels weird, but I have read somewhere that it's common in japanese. I also have heard that some girls avoid it because they sound a bit 'simple', but my source can be wrong.
According to Tae Kim, the most recommended form is to avoid first-name pronouns entirely if you can. English is special in that the pronouns have to be included in almost every sentence, but it doesn't sound natural in other languages.
In any case, "boku" is a best fit than "watashi" for talking with friends. Note that 私 has the meaning "private", so when you use it, you are establishing a distance between you and your partner.
Jarvik7
Member
From: 名古屋
Registered: 2007-03-05
Posts: 3946
DrJones wrote:
You can also refer to yourself using your own name instead of a pronoun. To us, it feels weird, but I have read somewhere that it's common in japanese. I also have heard that some girls avoid it because they sound a bit 'simple', but my source can be wrong.
It's not common, unless you're a 6yr old girl or trying to act as cute as one.
Maybe whoever said that boku was boyish meant that it is only used by males (and not females, unless they are singing a song), while not being coarse like ore.
You should also watch out using omae, even among peers. It treats the other person as 目下 and makes you 偉そう. Even among peers in Japan there is a hierarchy determined by relative age, who has known who longer, type of employment, etc. My Japanese girlfriend gets right pissed off if I use omae with her. Normally I just use her name.
That reminds me of a (non-Japanese) guy in my peer group who uses omae to refer to everyone instead of their name. Everyone (Japanese and non Japanese alike) calls him <name>-chan since ignorance of social levels makes him seem like a little boy.
Last edited by Jarvik7 (2008 April 17, 5:41 pm)
skinnyneo
Member
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 148
It seems like this has already been pretty well covered, but I'll throw in my experience as well. A few years ago I was an exchange student in Tokyo for a year and started to date a Japanese girl. It was my first time in Japan, and I didn't think I was an 俺 kind of person so I was using 僕 pretty much exclusively. My gf eventually told me that I should use 俺 as I'm not a little boy. I thought it was funny that she said that as it didn't seem right for me. But she was the Japanese one. A lot of my friends who also seemed very shy used 僕 and she said even they should use 俺. Now of course you have to consider the circumstances that we were all in. College exchange students, going to parties, skipping class, being young, etc. There isn't too much hierarchy here or anybody to really offend.
Now I am on JET and teach in a Junior High school. This situation is very very different. I hear 僕 all the time (I would say almost exclusively) in the teachers room. This makes sense to me now. All of the teachers are good friends, and only the VP and Principals are really above them (even they use it so as to be polite). It's not the environment for 俺. Every now and then when somebody is making a joke or try to be sarcastic I'll hear it.
Fast forward to out drinking parties. 俺 comes up almost all the time! At least wayyyy more then in any other situation. But we are all drinking! The rules kinda go out the window.
Like I said I don't think i'm sharing anything new, but just a verifiable experience.
She isn't alone in her usage of it though.
