yukamina wrote:

I never understood how an absolute beginner was supposed to acquire and understand 10 000 sentences all on their own... I wouldn't be able to learn anything from a sentence I couldn't already understand(without an explanation).

Yes I'm wondering that as well. Not that I've properly tried it but I find it hard to see.

About those sites, do you have any examples?

EDIT - Just searching the forums I found these Death Note scripts. These could be good!

http://lunar.littlestar.jp/stardust/eng … /DN-1.html

Last edited by Virtua_Leaf (2008 April 16, 12:06 pm)

Your best source for sentences will probably be something like Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar (which I like), All About Particles, Japanese for Everyone, or another good textbook for now.

UBJG is just a book full of correct sentences that give examples of correct grammar. They're dull, but useful. AAP is a really good book that goes into detail explaining particles and gives example sentences with each function. I like the way she has 2 different English translations-- the literal, and the "meaning." JFE is a solid textbook that does a good job of explaining things. You might have to find it used, though. Genki is also pretty good with grammar. It's not my favorite, but it's useful if you're willing to get creative in how you mine it.

It also doesn't hurt to have a phrasebook or two around, because knowing your clich?s is important in any language, but it really helps in Japanese.

Later on, when you want to start tackling lots of Kanji, I like the Kanji Odyssey books. They're pretty well thought out, and do a good job of presenting lots of kanji readings that are related to each other. The English translations are a little funky, but they're functional.

When you're first starting out, you should be looking for grammatically correct sentences of proper polite Japanese (for now, anyway), with good English translations. It's really hard to screw up if you're too polite, but if you're too casual, you'll come across as very rude. (And that's where you need some background knowledge before using something like manga or anime as a source, IMO.)

Also, try to find something with audio, if possible. The more audio, the better, because otherwise your pronunciation is going to be "off."

Finally, go both ways with your sentences. That means reading a sentence full of kana and kanji-> speaking it out loud, and then check the reading in all-kana on the back side. You also have to understand what it means, so put the English on the back as well. If you can't read it correctly, fail it until you can. If you don't understand it, fail it. That's a good way of learning kanji readings. Going the other way means using the reading of the sentence in kana as the front of the card, and writing out the sentence with the proper kanji. This is a bit slow, but I've found it to be very effective. Not every sentence will work for going both ways, because not every one has kanji in it, but those that do will make it a lot easier to master kanji.

That's been my experience so far, anyway.

Last edited by rich_f (2008 April 16, 12:27 pm)

Virtua_Leaf wrote:

Dragg wrote:

First, I would suggest going over the words and essentially memorizing every one you don't know from the JLPT 4 and JLPT 3 word lists.[...] Normally, I don't think it is a very good idea to learn vocab in isolation, but I think it is well worth it in the beginning stages because these words are so common you will see them within context soon enough.

Huh. I didn't even know lists existed like that. This sounds like a good place to start. And you suggest I should learn them on their own? Is there any sort of method I should use for doing this (like using an SRS)?

rich_f wrote:

Your best source for sentences will probably be something like Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar (which I like), All About Particles, Japanese for Everyone, or another good textbook for now.

Thanks for the recommendations. They sound like good, structured sources.

And I'll get onto Kanji Odyssey as well. Is that like a software package or something?

Yes, I believe you should learn the vocab without sentences for at least the first two levels.  (for some reason the JLPT beginner levels are named 4 and 3, and the advanced levels are 1 and 2)  This will quickly and efficiently help you gain a solid framework of the most common and useful vocab from which to build on.  It will help to minimize frustration when you work with complete sentences later on.  I think you should probably use an SRS, but I can't personally vouch for one because, believe it or not, I don't actually own a computer at the moment.  I access this site with an Iphone only. 

Kanji Odyssey comes in software and book form I believe.  I have the two books which supposedly are less comprehensive.  I have heard some people dislike the software version because you can not place the sentences directly in an SRS.  I think this is because image files are used instead of actual text files.

Last edited by Dragg (2008 April 16, 1:29 pm)

Dragg wrote:

in case you haven't already found one, this is a site that contains vocab lists for the first few JLPT levels.  www.spurrymoses.com/jlpt

Yeah, check the kanji lists as well as the vocab ones. They have a few word examples given for each kanji. I found it easier than alphabetical order(or whatever it's called、the あいうえおs). The level 3 and 4 grammar sections have sentence examples too.

There's also reading things that have translations. Online, there's short stories and children's stories. I've found 2.5 different versions of Alice in Wonderland in Japanese(http://www.genpaku.org/alice01/alice01j.html and the sequel http://www.genpaku.org/alice02/alice02j.html then there's these two others http://www.hp-alice.com/lcj/honyaku/yaku_index.html http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ur4y-hsn/// … ex-wl.html)
Working my way up to light novels before I try a real novel... ^_^;

Well, there is always the often maligned RTKII.  Yes, the stated purpose of the book is learning the readings.  But the very mechanism for learning the readings is to learn vocabulary.  For each onyomi reading of a kanji, one vocabulary word is provided.  In addition, I try to find one or two more common words for each reading.  I am throwing these into Twinkle and drilling.  By the time I finish the book, I should be familiar with 3000 to 4000 common words.

@rich_f
I think textbooks are great for sentence mining for grammar points, but most are rather anaemic on kanji usage, which is a shame for someone with RTK1 knowledge.

Ofcourse you can try to kanjify them yourself, but that's extra work + has some pitfalls, for example picking the wrong kanji (like 厚い　ｖｓ　暑い　vs　熱い), or kanjifying things that shouldn't be kanjified.

@gibosi
The problem with doing that is you may get 3000~4000 words along with the kanji readings, but absolutely no context to put them in.  Nothing to differentiate the many words that have similar or same meanings, and no idea how those words are actually used in the language.  It must be quite hard going when you've got little to hook those words on.

I'm going through Kanji Odyssey, and with that you can acquire 3000~4000 common words, as well as actually some understanding of when they're used and with what other words, etc.  Seems to work well for me so far, and the new vocab is very noticeable when watching doramas and anime.

Last edited by vosmiura (2008 April 16, 6:47 pm)

I'd definitely recommend a course or a text book. I went through the Japanese for Busy People series and Japanese for College Students. A lot of people recommend Genki. If there's a course going on in your area then I'd recommend enrolling.

if you just read things, your vocab will get better.

if you read them over and over again, you'll start to memorize them.

also, since you have to find your own sources, the vocab will be important to you, your interests, and likely help you with communication. for example, i'm interested in the news, so i read the 毎日小学生新聞. today the article was about the protests in tibet. now only did i learn fun words like "rebellion," but i also learned a great deal about tibet and their relations with china.

if you don't have access to something like that, just reading simple articles from the newspaper is good. if you use　ふりがなめがね　or pop-up　辞書, you'll be able to read a ton. and if you do it every day, your vocab will increase naturally, and usefully. not only will you start to learn words, but you'll have a context to use those words and something to talk about (or write about) in japanese.

not only that, but it makes your studies "your own personal" studies. it will relate to your life, your interests, and all of that. it will help you be you. flashcards and lists don't really do that.

but i guess this advice only works for people around the 3級ー１級 levels. the 4級 folk will need to memorize the basics. after all, you can't paint a picture until you've learned the hold the brush.

laner36 wrote:

TGWeaver wrote:

i'm interested in the news, so i read the 毎日小学生新聞.

How much is that paper?  And how often does it come?  Also, how difficult would you say it is?
I've been wanting to subscribe but everytime I follow the link to the sign up page, I get so intimidated with all the kanji, I end up not signing up.
Also, I will only be in Japan for 3 more months so I am not sure if I can subscribe for such a short time.?  Is it possible to get this paper out of the country (say in the U.S)?

EDIT: doh, 毎日　ね？　Do they have a weekly paper?

JList.com does magazine subscriptions and I think they can do custom orders. Maybe they can get the paper for you.

TGWeaver wrote:

it's totally weird being an adult in the children's reading room, but once you get used to it (and they get used to you)

p.s. - if japanese folk catch you reading a children's newspaper or book on the train, they'll giggle, and you can start conversation with them. they think it's really cute. it's the only way i've been able to start conversation on a regular basis.

-lol-

Sounds like fun!

It's funny how just being gaijin, you can be as weird as you like and it's just cute and exotic and you can use it to strike up conversations.
Just think about what the people would think about a japanese adult reading children's papers in the train or kids' reading rooms!

Well.. During my time in Japan I was thinking about asking if they'd allow me to spectate some school classes but I'm not so sure about that though.. Perhaps someday if they'd like to have a gaijin tell the kids about the big world out there and would like to return the favor by letting you to spectate a couple of hours of regular school teaching.. I dunno.. =/
Has anyone any experience about that?


By the way! Can you order that 子供の毎日 outside Japan? (sorry if that has come up already!)

You should see if your library also has a scheduled day where they read to kids

-lol-

I can imagine all the RTK:ers sitting in the front rows from now on!

The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is fine if you want to learn Japanese in alphabetical order, but the nice thing about a textbook is that it presents information in a more logical order. I haven't used Tae Kim's guide, so I have no idea how good/bad it is. I prefer to use texts that have been written by native Japanese speakers, because I know for sure that the sentences will make sense. (Or at least I hope they do.)

I know someone on the forums has already done all the sentences for Japanese for Everyone in a spreadsheet-- just search for it on the forums and you should find the link. So that would save you a huge amount of time if you can track down a copy of the book to go with them. (I found a used copy in an old book shop here for $15.)