shimouma
New member
From: Japan
Registered: 2008-03-07
Posts: 9
Basically, I want to try and improve my retention rates. I'm up to frame 414 and have been going along at about 15 to 25 kanji per day. I would say that I average roughly 70% in terms of recall and also clear the failed pile on a daily basis.
I am worried that I might be studying too much and confusing myself.
One question I have is, how often do you look at a kanji before you test yourself?
Generally, I'll 'study' the kanji 3 or 4 times in the book before entering the new frames into this site and testing myself.
Is this counter-productive? Heisig says once only. How about everyone else?
Also - do you ever review independently of this site using books/manga?
I tend to skim through manga, for about 20 or so minutes a day, looking for kanji I've learned and trying to recall the keyword (ie kanji to keyword). I'll also sometimes go and flip through some of the earlier chapters in the Heisig book and test myself that way (keyword to kanji), if I have a spare five minutes. Anyone think this is a bad idea?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Last edited by shimouma (2008 March 30, 4:01 am)
pm215
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-01-26
Posts: 1354
Well, what I do is go through the kanji on the 'study' page. I try to average about 20 kanji a day (maybe 25 if it's a weekend and I have the time). For each one I look at the existing stories and copy one or sometimes write my own. When I get to the end of the set I'm doing I put them into the system with the 'add flashcards' link. Then I go off and do something else. Some time later that day (a few hours, maybe) I do the 'test cards added today' thing. If I don't get 85% or better on that I know I wasn't paying enough attention during the study phase. I aim for at least 90% on the usual daily reviews.
I think that since this site handles flashcard testing for you there's no point doing "manual" tests of a set of kanji before putting it into the system.
Are you finding that you're failing the same cards over and over, or do you fail cards you got right several times before, or do you fail most cards once or twice and then they're fine after that? When you fail, are you drawing a complete blank, or do you remember half a story and get some detail wrong, or do you get the right primitives in the wrong order?
Airymon
Member
From: Augsburg, Germany
Registered: 2008-02-27
Posts: 19
I'm at frame 1183 right now. So far I followed the same procedure every time:
I take a batch of 10-15 following Kanji look at their stories and write them down on a notepad. After finishing those 10-15 Kanji, I copy them into mnemosyne. Most of the times I already try to recall the Kanji at that point, by just looking up the keyword and so on. When I finished I'll repeat with the next batch and so on until I get around 35-40 Kanji per day.
After finishing I enter the Kanji up to this frame into my account on RtK and read through the top stories given in the commentaries of the new Kanji. Those which I like better than my own, I memorize.
Then I take a break (usually about 6 hours) doing something else and after that I review the newly added Cards in RtK once. Those which I fail, I take an extra look at.
So far this method hasn't brought any particular difficulties, so I feel I'm fine with it. Even if my recall rate sometimes drops to around 75% on the first go (there were some lessons, that didn't stick so good) usually after 2-3 days I got my usual recall rate of somewhat around 90% on the whole. By double repeating every day - once in RtK, once in Mnemosyne (most of the time Mnemosyne tests me on 50% different Kanji than RtK does) everything sticks after a few goes. The longest fail streak I had was around 3 times for a particular Kanji, but on the whole I don't forget much.
If it worked until now, I'm sure I can pull through with the next 800 Kanji without any problems.
Last edited by Airymon (2008 March 30, 10:27 am)
tuuli
Member
From: new york
Registered: 2007-11-10
Posts: 44
I think there was a discussion about this in another thread, but I can't find it...
I do about 20-30 a day, and this has been working (at 1530 now)
1) Write down the list of English keywords you are going to get through on paper
2) On a separate piece of paper, write the kanji as you learn/make up the stories. I might write each one a couple times til it looks symmetrical and well-spaced and tell the story to myself til the image is clear
3) After getting through the 20 to 30, go to my written keyword list immediately and fill in all the kanji I just learned. If any are forgotten at this point the story need improvement.
4) Add the cards on this site but DO NOT review them until the next morning, clicking "test cards added yesterday." Retention is usually 100%, and then around 90% as time goes on...
Ryuujin27
Member
Registered: 2006-12-14
Posts: 824
I only look at the kanji once and my retention rate is easily over 90%.
You really need to just trust Heisig and use his method. When you look at a kanji do this:
1) Look at the kanji, take in it's shape.
2) Look at the keyword, then back at the kanji. Try to fit it together in your head without reading the primitives or plots or stories, wherever you are in the book.
3) Next, look at the story, or make one up yourself using the primitives.
4) Take a good 5 minutes or so and just playing with the story in your head. Close your eyes, sit back, and just think about the story. Try to make it so that when you repeat the keyword to yourself, the story pops up in your head and the outrageous/scary/action-packed image can take over
5) Then, turn to your piece of paper without looking at the book and say the keyword. Let the image pop into your head and repeat your story to yourself while writing the kanji.
Do that and you should be fine.
*Edit*
I forgot to say that after I do that, I usually enter all the cards I've study so far that day into my deck on RevTK. Then, after I have about 25-30 (or I've finished a lesson), I go ahead and take a break for about a half hour/hour. Then I come back and review that blue stack.
This definitely works because the only kanji I ever forget doing this are the ones who I can not make a good image in my head for. So, once I fail them, I turn to the stories on here, and see if I like anything better. Usually I'll find something, spend 5 minutes playing with the image, and then I'll have it.
Good luck!
Last edited by Ryuujin27 (2008 March 30, 10:41 am)
Airymon
Member
From: Augsburg, Germany
Registered: 2008-02-27
Posts: 19
I've never made that much effort for remembering stories. I know many people use the "a few minutes of story making per kanji". It usually doesn't take me that long.
Also while reviewing: I always write the Kanji down, when I'm doing keyword to Kanji reviewing. You can't fool yourself afterwards and some Kanji I already know by heart now (i.e. seeing the keyword = knowing the shape, without story or even primitive recollection in a step by step process). At first I was using real paper for it, but by now I switched to the IME writing pad. Doesn't take that much paper (250-300 Kanji per day would quickly swallow my notepad resources) and you can also check yourself easily on the stroke order and number of strokes you used. If you made a mistake IME won't recognise the Kanji most of the time.
Last edited by Airymon (2008 March 30, 1:35 pm)
Shibo
Member
From: South Dakota, USA
Registered: 2008-01-19
Posts: 132
I'm only on #605, but my method has been working for me so far..
I used index cards for flashcards, as I do a lot of reviewing in the car. I drive over 20 hours per week, normally much more than that, so I need a way of reviewing that doesn't involve my reading a book and killing other motorists. 
Anyway, I usually make about 20 flashcards at a time, and use the website to help me come up with my stories. Once my retention rate is above 90% with the cards (1-2 days), I add them to this site and then review them the following day. I guess I could probably go faster, but I'm using Pimsleur and Japanese for Busy People I at the same time. The variety keeps it fun for me.
dukelexon
Member
From: Utah
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 44
I stay well above 85%-95% retention, and I've only ever looked at a kanji once. At the end of each session, I'll do a "mock" test on my own, with what I've written (my one and only "backwards" review, ever) ... then it's inputted into the site.
Overall, I think that one of the largest mistakes people make is spending too long on each frame of kanji. Moving along through RTK3 as I am right now, I've got the method practiced to a point in which I barely spend THIRTY SECONDS (on average) per new kanji. Sometimes, if the English keyword is sufficiently vague or I have to engineer a particularly obscure story from scratch (there's no good ones to steal), I'll spend as long as a minute or two ... but I certainly don't go beyond that.
I know it feels almost unbelievable that you could actually be "learning" when you proceed that quickly, but it's actually the best approach I've found. Back when I agonized over each frame, and carefully pieced the mnemonic images together in my mind, they'd slip away. When I simply decided quickly on an image, and repeated it to myself a couple of times while I write the kanji, I do so much better.
Let the spaced repitition do the rest of your work for you. Don't second guess yourself -- constant over-review is something that leads to rapidly forgetting something, as counter-intuitive as that may sound.
One thing that I do make sure and do is ensure that I have an official "same day" and "next day" review. I'll input the cards into the site, review them, then actually remove and re-add them so I can hold off on adding them to that first official box until the day after. After that, the scheduling kicks in, and it becomes three days ... one week ... two weeks ... and so forth.
Last edited by dukelexon (2008 April 01, 6:40 pm)
