Trinity Alpha Release

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Reply #151 - 2008 April 08, 1:06 pm
sutebun Member
From: Oregon Registered: 2007-06-29 Posts: 172

I like being able to quiz specific vocab lists, but being able to do a writing quiz for vocab lists would be even better.

I don't really want to use the leitner system on the site as much, but I would love the ability to create several vocab lists of ~50 words and then everyday just do a writing quiz for one of them and note my mistakes. It's a quick and easy way to review words someone has already learned but hasn't quite embedded the writing in their memory yet.

Reply #152 - 2008 April 08, 10:33 pm
cb4960 Member
From: Los Angeles Registered: 2007-06-22 Posts: 917

Hello, I really like what you've done with Trinity. One thing though, I can't seem to find ケ in the "china wall," yet when I add the compound 怪我 (けが), the "On groups covered" counter on the upper-right side of the interface increments by one. Is this an oversight or am I missing something?

Reply #153 - 2008 April 09, 4:05 pm
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

cb4960 Currently, the Onyomi page has characters arranged into groups where each character only appears once, with one of its chinese reading selected as "primary" reading. This was meant to be helpful with techniques like kanji chains but it doesn't work as expected, so I will put all the readings in the beta.

sutebun Ok, Vocab List > Writing Quizz on the list.

MethodGT wrote:

Hey Fabrice, when do you think we should be expecting the beta version?  Might it be weeks or should we not anticipate it for a few more months?

Thing is I don't have a clear list of what should be in for the beta, I'm working on it. Beta is not going to come out all of a sudden, I'll continue making changes towards that list. It's certainly not for April or May.

Maybe some of the things you are expecting are not even in that list? In fact it would be very helpful if you had anything in mind, let me know for example what are the top 3 things you'd like to see in Trinity, and that 'll help me clarify that beta to-do list.

Starting this week, site updates are almost frozen. I am doing a complete refactoring of the site's code. I really should get it done in April. In May we've got loads of national holidays here in Belgium so I will have some extra time for the site and hopefully the refactoring will pay off and it will be fun.

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Reply #154 - 2008 April 09, 5:22 pm
MethodGT Member
From: Utah Registered: 2008-01-28 Posts: 78

ファブリス wrote:

Maybe some of the things you are expecting are not even in that list? In fact it would be very helpful if you had anything in mind, let me know for example what are the top 3 things you'd like to see in Trinity, and that 'll help me clarify that beta to-do list.

1 - Searchable Kanji.
2 - IE functionality.
3 - Different colored unfinished and finished kanji groups on the "Wall of China".

I guess a 4th thing I'd like is Trinity access from the menu bar on top.

Reply #155 - 2008 April 09, 6:10 pm
amthomas Member
From: Japan Registered: 2006-06-22 Posts: 104

Oh, well... I think lots of people are really excited to try out the kanji-chain mapper graphical thing... but other than that, I think I'd like to see the entire site (RevTK and Trinity) merged into one main "learn all of Japanese in one location" sort of a setup.

Something that has nothing to do with Trinity, really, but just a general *eventual* kind of an update would be an overall progress summary page. Right now, Trinity has it's own pie charts, and RevTK has it's main page with the summary of how many flashcards you've added, but there's not one main page to see all of your progress information. I guess that that is just more of the same thing as my other suggestion, though... integration of RevTK and Trinity...

So... enough rambling, time to get some sleep...

-ang

Reply #156 - 2008 April 11, 9:47 am
tomusan Member
From: Japan Registered: 2008-02-06 Posts: 79 Website

Don't know if this has ever been discussed in the past before..but something I'd find extremely useful would be a flashcard system similar to the one we use to review RTK1, but designed for RTK2 readings. Adding cards up the frame number in the book would add obviously the Kanji to be read, but also the compounds listed in RTK2 to the Vocab section in Trinity.

Reply #157 - 2008 April 15, 6:11 am
adnim New member
From: Germany Registered: 2008-04-11 Posts: 4

BUG?

In Vocab Editor, while the result window for JDICT-searches is open, I find myself unable to enter newlines/linebreaks into the description.

Using the opportunity, I also want to give my supportive vote towards custom vocabulary, either individual or community-managed.
I regularly frequent www.wadoku.de, where the situation is opposite: the dictionary is excellently community-managed but the quizzing-feature lacks coolness.

Reply #158 - 2008 April 15, 11:53 am
akrodha Member
From: Miami, FL Registered: 2006-08-30 Posts: 98 Website

adnim wrote:

In Vocab Editor, while the result window for JDICT-searches is open, I find myself unable to enter newlines/linebreaks into the description.

I get the same bug too.

Reply #159 - 2008 April 15, 1:33 pm
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

Yeah, I'll have to improve that.

In the meantime please note you can escape quickly from the search by pressing the ESC key.

Reply #160 - 2008 April 23, 9:52 pm
synewave Member
From: Susono, Japan Registered: 2006-06-23 Posts: 864 Website

Bump - not been on the site for a while. Scanned through the thread but couldn't see Fabrice's response to this one (that's not to say it isn't there though).

Pauline wrote:

BUG: When reviewing 親切 in the vocabulary section I got the card in this format:

question:
しんせつ
親切 (word usually written with kana)

answer:
しんせつ
kindness; gentleness

I want to test the reading of the compound. Other cards I have tested did not show the kana in the question and did not have the "(word usually written with kana)".

Reply #161 - 2008 April 24, 11:59 am
MethodGT Member
From: Utah Registered: 2008-01-28 Posts: 78

I don't think that's a bug.  Unless I'm mistaken, the vocabulary section isn't so much about reading the kanji as it is about understanding words.  Personally, I like the words that come up in kana--apart from giving me one less thing to worry about (the reading), it prepares me for actual japanese text, where the word might be written in kana and without the kanji, much harder to understand.

Reply #162 - 2008 April 24, 6:19 pm
Thora Member
From: Canada Registered: 2007-02-23 Posts: 1691

hmm...odd because 親切 isn't usually written in kana...

Reply #163 - 2008 April 24, 9:37 pm
meolox Member
Registered: 2007-08-31 Posts: 386

Bug: When I go into the vocab flashcards section, my flashcards have 90 pages yet it lists up to 120 all of which are blank when I click them.

Reply #164 - 2008 April 24, 10:57 pm
synewave Member
From: Susono, Japan Registered: 2006-06-23 Posts: 864 Website

Thora wrote:

hmm...odd because 親切 isn't usually written in kana...

True. This was discussed further up the thread.

My point was more about words that are usually kana but there is a kanji equivalent. Personally my preference would be to be tested in the vocab section on the kanji and not shown the reading till you flip the card.

As far as I can tell, Fabrice hasn't yet ruled on this one yet.

Reply #165 - 2008 April 24, 11:03 pm
MethodGT Member
From: Utah Registered: 2008-01-28 Posts: 78

Maybe there could be an option?

Oh, and BUG: I can't find 又 anywhere in the Kanji section.  I'm assuming it should be under ユウ, but it's nowhere to be found.

Reply #166 - 2008 April 25, 3:20 am
tomusan Member
From: Japan Registered: 2008-02-06 Posts: 79 Website

After seaching for a word in the vocab manager, could be useful to be able to add the top entry by just pressing enter again, save having to reach for the mouse.

Also, I was trying to add 十四日 by typing "jyuuyokka". But it couldn't find it, how should 十四日 be expressed in Romaji?

Reply #167 - 2008 April 25, 4:44 am
Pauline Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2005-10-04 Posts: 134

tomusan wrote:

Also, I was trying to add 十四日 by typing "jyuuyokka". But it couldn't find it, how should 十四日 be expressed in Romaji?

Since searching with si or tu does not work, the search box must be using Hepburn romanization. Try searching with juuyokka.

I searched a little on different romanization systems and none of the standards allows jyuu. Hepburn uses juu, while Nihon-shiki uses zyū (macron) and Kunrei-shiki  uses zy? (circumflex). Normally jyuu is not used for romanization of じゅう, only when entering text that is to be converted to japanese script (waapuro roumaji).

Reply #168 - 2008 April 25, 11:20 am
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

MethodGT wrote:

Oh, and BUG: I can't find 又 anywhere in the Kanji section.  I'm assuming it should be under ユウ, but it's nowhere to be found.

Yes. This character does not have a (P)riority entry with a chinese reading and so it was filtered out of the alpha version of the "china wall".

This will probably be a non-issue when I put back all the readings in there.

My first intention was not to overwhelm learners with seldom used readings. However I think in the future the "china wall" will become more of an advanced feature, a different way to look at the kanji and to connect them. As such, there will be no need to filter out anything.

Next, and related, I am going to scrap my first "kanji chains" idea and proof of concept page (which is not in the public Trinity alpha), and try to develop something better that does not require the full-on RtK2-style approach that very few learners seem to be following. One reason I came to this plan is that after several months of not reviewing any of my kanji chains I find some of them do stick and are helpful, but I also find myself swamped by hundreds of compounds which I added to illustrate the characters but which I don't remember easily because I didn't connect them with anything else. Some of those words did stick very well, because perhaps they are more suggestive than others. I think there is really value in adding sentences, or at least learning words in context, whether you add and review the sentences in a SRS doesn't matter. So anyway.. I'm brainstorming on a better kanji chain approach which naturally fits into the other reviews..

Reply #169 - 2008 April 25, 11:31 am
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

synewave wrote:

As far as I can tell, Fabrice hasn't yet ruled on this one yet.

I'm leaning towards putting up the kanji as prompt in vocab reviews, if only to be able to read that word when you see it in kanji form.

However words "usually written in kana" (as per EDICT) are not meant to appear in the writing test (don't remember if I fixed that one).

Thanks to your comments I realized that I will need to add some admin part for editing the dictionary without waiting for new versions from Jim Breen. My first idea was that EDICT would be sufficient and I would update from Jim Breen's site once in awhile, and forward errors back to EDICT. As it would be good to contribute back. Unfortunately I don't think that it will work out well in practice... So I'm going to have to track changes and add some admin pages where "editors" can go and correct some entries (this definitely won't be for beta, but if you see obvious errors in the dictionary I may be able to update the database until then).

Reply #170 - 2008 May 09, 9:16 pm
RickN New member
From: Portland Oregon Registered: 2007-10-21 Posts: 6

I was reviewing sentences. I clicked on a kanji, and it took me to the page about that kanji. When I clicked Back, the sentence I was reviewing was gone and another was in its place. I assume the page simply refreshed and another unread sentence was displayed.

You may want to display the kanji info in a new window to avoid this.

Any estimate about when the Trinity Beta might begin?

Rick

Reply #171 - 2008 May 24, 9:55 am
namakemono New member
From: Yokohama Registered: 2007-04-21 Posts: 1

Congratulations Fabrice on a very nice piece of work. I really like the concept of unifying sentences, vocab and kanji, and exploiting the links between them. Although it's pretty obvious when you think about it, there's nothing I know of out there that goes much beyond the basic flashcard idea. It's a terrible waste, but also a great opportunity for someone with your interests and programming/design skills.

For me, the main thing that's missing right now is the ability to drill in directions other than kanji to reading/meaning. For me, the most useful thing is to practice from meaning to reading. In particular, for sentences I want to practice expressing things in Japanese, using the correct particles and conjugations etc.. Going in the other direction is useful, but not sufficient. Maybe you already have this in mind, but this functionality is crucial I think.

The ability to grab vocab from edict is really great, and very nicely implemented. It's a huge time-saver and cuts down on errors. By standardising entries you automatically detect when the same vocab item appears in more than one list. You don't want to be accumulating multiple versions of essentially the same item just because of minor differences in the way it has been entered. The grammatical information in edict is also extremely helpful I think. If drilling a verb, for example, it's often important to see whether it's v1 or v5r, vi or vt. The edict part-of-speech codes are very compact, so maybe they can just be shown in full with the vocab item.

I wonder whether it's also worth having the ability to select out the different meanings identified in the edict entries. If you're drilling the meaning of まいる, (to come, to go, to die, to be annoyed, to be madly in love...), you could soon start wondering what counts as a successful review... Anyway, although edict has its faults, the benefits of standardising vocab entries across users outweigh the disadvantages I would think. Better to find ways around edict's limitations than drop the concept.

Another thing I would find useful would be the ability to view example sentences when reviewing vocabulary, especially when the nuance of the word is not obvious. This is straightforward to implement I would think; you just want the option to see those sentences in your collection (or other collections) from which you've extracted out the vocab item you're drilling. If those sentences are directly associated with the list you're drilling (e.g. associated with the same textbook chapter), they could be highlighted and appear first in the list.

Anyway, keep up the good work. There's potential here to produce a really unique and helpful tool for us Japanese learners, and hopefully something you can make a good living from eventually.

Reply #172 - 2008 May 26, 1:02 pm
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

Hi namakemono,

thanks for the kind comments, it cheered me up. You seem to understand really well what I was trying to do.

I agree about the grammatical information. It was supposed to be one of the core features of the vocab lookup UI but somehow I didn't get around to it for the alpha version, even though the data is there. The plan was to use icons for those, some would be clickable and link to extra funtionality (okurigana ...).

Example sentences when reviewing vocabulary : it will be there eventually. At the moment there is a link in vocab review that takes you to one attached sentence/vocab list, where you can do further editing or remove the vocab item. It lacks the sentence list though.

I'm kind of in a break now and need to look at concrete ways to fund myself for developing Trinity further without sacrificing all my personal time on it.

Reply #173 - 2008 May 28, 9:45 pm
synewave Member
From: Susono, Japan Registered: 2006-06-23 Posts: 864 Website

ファブリス wrote:

I'm kind of in a break now and need to look at concrete ways to fund myself for developing Trinity further without sacrificing all my personal time on it.

Not too sure of your personal philosophy. However it would be easy to make the case that you have been too altruistic with the creation of your site.

One option could be to do something similar to Heisig and offer a taster of what your site is about, e.g. new users can get up to say frame 500 for free, then users could buy packs of 500 frames.

Looking at the forum recently a lot of the old school seem to have moved on. My guess would be that the user base is going to be constantly shifting, new users joining and then those who are "finished" dropping off. So charging us for the journey may be one way to generate a decent revenue stream.

Obviously there will be some who can't afford a fixed charge and that's where your apparent altruism and need to make a living from the site may clash. Personally I'd advocate militancy mad

I want a Lexus but they ain't going to give me one for free just coz I can't afford it.

This suggestion is not meant to be facetious in any way. I'd love you to make a living from this site and further look forward to the day when IE will be able to work with Trinity.

All the best.

Reply #174 - 2008 May 28, 9:56 pm
Zarxrax Member
From: North Carolina Registered: 2008-03-24 Posts: 949

Can't you just put some google ads on the site or something? Also it may help to stress the fact that people *need* to make a donation if they want to see the site continue to improve. People are generous, but often only if they see a real need to be. One site I have frequented for years costs hundreds (or maybe thousands) of dollars per month to operate, and it has been able to get by just fine because of user donations. If people think that their money will go to a good purpose (the site being improved) I think they will donate.

Last edited by Zarxrax (2008 May 28, 9:56 pm)

Reply #175 - 2008 May 28, 10:50 pm
meolox Member
Registered: 2007-08-31 Posts: 386

I wouldn't object to google ads, although I do use adblock so I'm too sure of the money making effectiveness of google ads. I'd also be willing to pay to use the site but I can see how that might affect the userbase if some people can't pay.

Maybe keeping the initial part of the site free such as the Heisig part, then offer trinity as an extra for a fixed price, not too sure I'd be happy to pay a subscription I'd feel like my knowledge was being held hostage.