vosmiura wrote:

Jarvik7 mentioned it may be a problem if you aim for Kanken 1.  Umm... most Japanese people can't even do Kanken 1 so I think that's not something that bothers me greatly.  I'll be content if I can pass Kanken 2 within a couple of years.  Post RTK1 I think it's largely a matter of vocab, not of kanji themselves.

Yeah, I'm more concerned about vocab and getting this done, which is why I'm all for quick and dirty techniques. I'm not too concerned about Kanken 1.

But if you are concerned about getting the etymology correct, then go for it. I actually have used the correct etymology in one particular case-- I replaced "Piggy Bank" with "Rise Up" as the meaning for that particular radical. (I agree-- it's an awkward replacement on Heisig's part.) For the most part, though, I'm just trying to find the path of least resistance that gives me the most vivid images.

Actually, I may start looking at the etymology for a few more, because I haven't found anything I particularly like about a couple of them. (But that's my problem.)

DrJones-- you need to do what works for you. Whatever gets your retention rate up and your failed pile down is just fine. If you don't like personalization or substitution, then go for it. It works for me sometimes, so I use it.

The OP was trying to finish RTK up by May, so I suggested those techniques as a quick and dirty way to get through troublesome primitives.

As for Mr.T, I don't get distracted by his mohawk, or the gold chains. I'm more interested in his personality and voice, both of which are distinctive, and stick in my head pretty well. I also grew up when he was pretty famous, so he's an easy choice for me. But again-- I use what works for me.

Last edited by rich_f (2008 March 05, 6:00 pm)

Jarvik7 wrote:

Deroo's Kanji ABCs (I think that's the name) uses the same component analysis system as RTK I hear. I've never actually seen the inside of the book (Deroo should really offer a sample pdf like Heisig does), but I wonder if he similarly goes off the deep-end and starts assigning random names to kanji & primitives.

I have seen this book at the library. It is very confusing. It is just a list of "graphemes" and it did not really have instructions (or at least clear ones) as to how to use it.

Yeah, there are other books that break up kanji into components, but I think there isn't any that takes you through it as much as Heisig.  I think there's more to it than just breaking into components.

If you work with etymology that's fine but there's like a dozen different components that represent "hands" and stuff like that in the etymology, and giving them distinct keywords takes effort out of learning the many kanji that use them.

There's also cases where primitives (for example "schoolhouse") actually have several different roots but they just came to be written the same over time.  Unless you're an etymology scholar, that information is quite superfluous.

Christine Tham has a page with etymology based stories.  It is very interesting, but at the same time I thought it was harder to learn than with Heisig.  Somehow it looked as though there were more primitives to learn, and they were much less distinct to learn than in Heisig... lose-lose situation if you ask me.  But for people who would prefer that, why not.

Last edited by vosmiura (2008 March 06, 2:41 am)

Jarvik7 wrote:

My biggest complaint with RTK is how he arbitrarily changes the meanings of things. It doesn't make things easier in the short term and it makes it harder in the long term since you need to unlearn what was in RTK and then relearn the correct information.

I think you're missing the point. The book is called "Remembering the Kanji". It is a system to help you recall and write kanji at will. Whether or not the primitive meanings are "correct" make no difference.

If it helps you to remember the kanji, that's all the matters.

I doubt most Japanese people can give you an explanation to the "correct" etymology
of every kanji. Trying asking Japanese people about the history of individual kanji
and then compare it to your books. Most will probably tell you a story different from what you've read and i'm sure you'll hear lots of different stories for the same kanji.

Also, I think the fact that so many people have overcome kanji is a testament to the fact that the Heisig system works amazingly well.

The last comment I have(this goes out to everyone) is to finish RTK first before criticizing it. A lot of answers can be found in the text itself in those explanations he gives before some lessons.

Last edited by chamcham (2008 March 07, 10:46 am)

I don't see why "computer" is inherently any harder to make stories out of any more than "temple" or "cow" or anything really.  ("computer" makes learning "logic" pretty easy).  Whether something works better for one person or another is very personal, but I don't think the choice of 'crazy' keywords is a big deal, unless you dwell on it.

Anyway, you have to learn real Japanese words & how to use them... not accurate kanji keywords.  No matter how accurate a keyword you can come up with, with the exception of a few of the kanji, there's no way that a keyword can cover the breadth of the vocab associated with each kanji.

Yeah, what I meant is that I don't think the chosen keywords are inherently poor, however on a personal basis you may come up with better ones for yourself.

I made up some primitives of my own, for example I made "person"+"walkingstick" into a single primitive.

I'm now into Part III and slowed down a bit for a start.

Although I somehow get the impression that some things just stick better right now, than many of the Kanji in Part II did at first. Anyway - Heisigs storys tended to get on my nerves a great deal for the last 2-3 days in Part II and I came up with some stories of my own instead.

Anyway I'm now going at 30-35 Kanji per day regularly. In Part II I did 55-60 and it has grown a bit tedious. Maybe I'll speed up a bit (not much, just to 40-45) if it continues to look good.