According to "Making sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin that has a chapter on that question, 知る means something closer to "to find out about" than "to know" so when you say "知っている" meaning "I know" you're saying that you are "in the state of already having found out". 知る would probably sound more like "I will find out" in that context and be kind of weird.

I recommend that book to find out more on that topic and many others

Last edited by Codexus (2008 February 28, 12:14 pm)

And you hear しっている/しっています all the time, the other, not so much.

ALCing yorkii's 知った returns a cheeky little expression 知ったことか。

知るもんか is more interesting, haha.

But I'd say in general, it's one of those questions better thought in the reverse. Why DON'T we say "Are you knowing that?" Basically the answer is just that we don't. I'd venture a guess that it's similar with why Japanese doesn't really use 知る.

In regular usage, people use 知っている and 知らない (知っとん and 知らん in my area, heh). I know your question is "when" and not "why" but I find the "why" to be more important. 'Cause in my experience, the when is so rare that I can't even say I've heard (perhaps recognized) it.

did you find that sentence somewhere? or did you write it yourself...it seems odd to me mixing the これから with the でした

but ya you are right that ところ is not just for a physical place, but also a point in time.

たった今仕事を終えたところです。
I have just finished my work. 

仕事を終えたところでした。
I had just finished my work.

to say something like "I was just about to go."  I would maybe use some like:
ちょうど行こうとした。

can anyone tell me if that sentence is ok by itself?  I think I've mostly seen stuff like that as a clause at the beginning of a sentence...like:

ちょうど出かけようとしたが、電話が鳴った。
I was just about to go out, but the phone rang.

Codexus wrote:

According to "Making sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin that has a chapter on that question, 知る means something closer to "to find out about" than "to know" so when you say "知っている" meaning "I know" you're saying that you are "in the state of already having found out". 知る would probably sound more like "I will find out" in that context and be kind of weird.

I recommend that book to find out more on that topic and many others

The bit on "わかる" in the same chapter was also great.  The way that "you" don't わかる "something", but rather "something" わかる's itself.

わかる "something becomes clear".
わかった "something just spontaneously became clear".
わかっている "something is clear and has been for a long time".

〜するところだ just about to do ~
〜しているところだ in the middle of doing ~
〜したところだ just finished doing ~

It's one of the grammar points you study for 3-kyu I think. I remember thinking the same thing about "eh, place? what" when I first came across it, but turns out it's fairly common.

And Ramchip, I think you're right about just being an emphasis in that sentence. For example, I think of 今 as "now" and 今のところ as "at this point in time". Pretty close to the same meaning, but the usage is slightly different, the second more or less emphasizing that specifically right NOW something is true, but maybe not later.

Last edited by Jawful (2008 February 29, 9:14 pm)

In practice, I've rarely heard people use "shiru/shirimasu" in real life. Shitteiru/Shitteimasu makes much more sense. Finding out "whether someone knows about something" (Shitteiru) is much more useful than finding out if someone "will come to know something" (shiru).

The -te iru ending adds a sense of dealing with the current state of things. "Shitteimasu ka" is like asking "At this moment and time, do you current know about <something>?".

Definitely read "Making Sense of Japanese". Changes your whole perspective on everything and makes you aware of little details that you may have never considered.

Yeah I should definitely get on to buying that book, sounds like exactly what I need.

And soon, because I have another question!

久しぶりに彼の声が聞けた。

"I was able to hear his voice for the first time in a long time."

- http://www.guidetojapanese.org/potential.html#part2

(sorry johnzep, I forgot to say: I'm getting these questions/translations from Tae Kim)

In short, what's the に for there?

Ohhh... thanks. I completely forgot about that rule.

I always have problems with adverbs actually, even in English. I always think 'just add "ly" at the end (in a loose sense)' but that doesn't always work:

久しぶりに彼の声が聞けた。

After-a-long-time(ly) he('s) voice (identifier) hear(could)

That's how I'd translate that.But the adverb doesn't make much sense. What's the difference between using that and just 久しぶり on it's own?

billyclyde wrote:

And しっている often gets shortened to してる, like in manga dialogue.

I'm not sure that's true... They are two different meanings. they probably just say it a little fast or something. but the っ is never left out.

Smackle wrote:

In many manga and other scripts, the つ is not small though. This is because it is somewhat understood.

The つ actually is smaller, just not by very much.