Trimming down the Kanji Deck...

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Floatingweed5 Member
From: Scotland UK Registered: 2007-03-10 Posts: 120

I finished the book just before christmas and started on the SRS/sentence method about mid-January. Even after this short time I'm beginning to find that some of the common Kanji are beginning to take on deeper meaning as they appear and are reviewed in the various sentences I have gathered.

It would seem that the target is now to get rid of the "crutch" that is the keywords before they become too engrained. Many people on these forums have discussed switching over to Japanese keywords, but I wonder what the opinion is on removing the kanji completely from the "kanji" review deck once it is significantly represented in the "sentence" deck (and thus letting the keyword fade away in the memory to be replaced by the general meaning/contextual usage)?

synewave Member
From: Susono, Japan Registered: 2006-06-23 Posts: 864 Website

You could always stop reviewing on the site smile

stehr Member
From: california Registered: 2007-09-25 Posts: 281

The keywords are not a crutch, they should fade gradually as you learn the readings.  Plus it doesn't really matter even if you remember the keyword anyways.  I think that someone who never tried the method was the one to devised this "crutch" theory, but many decide to drop the english keywords because they know the Japanese keyword so well, or it is simply saves more study time to switch.

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brose Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2006-11-15 Posts: 94

I don't think you ever have to worry about the keywords becoming "engrained". If you keep reading in Japanese, you will recognize more and more of the words, and you will not need to think of the keywords to understand the text. As that happens, the keywords will gradually fade away. This is the way memory systems are supposed to work. The bigger danger is forgetting the keywords before you are fully familiar with the kanji.

Nukemarine Member
From: 神奈川 Registered: 2007-07-15 Posts: 2347

I concur that the keyword begins to go away. I NEVER look at 私 as PRIVATE. It remains "I" for all intents and purposes unless I'm reviewing RTK.  Same goes with "evening" 晩 .

So there's merit in Heisig's feeling about how your recall of Kanji works.

That said, you could remove common use kanji from your deck. However, if you're doing the deck right, the common use kanji will come up very rarely so will not need to be removed as the time spread effectively removes it. Just a matter of how you look at it.

Floatingweed5 Member
From: Scotland UK Registered: 2007-03-10 Posts: 120

Stehr, thanks for the response. The concept of the keywords being a crutch was from my own thinking, but maybe the word "crutch" was a bit strong. It suggests an illness or a deficiency. Placemarker, perhaps? Hook? ...something to hang the kanji on, but expendable in the larger picture. I've always viewed them in this way.

One of the reasons for wanting to get rid of the keywords is the time spent reviewing them. This takes around half an hour or more of my study time every day, which is fine for now, (and I realize that it will diminish in time) but I'd like to design it out completely from my study if I can re-enforce the kanji in other ways.

It's certainly not an option to stop reviewing altogether! There are too many less-common kanji perching on the edge of being forgotten and I've put too much work into getting them into my head to allow that to happen. I study using an external SRS and I can add or remove individual cards from my deck if required.

I don't agree that the keywords will fade away in time if you continue to review them. That's the purpose of review. However, I can see that knowing the keywords will not necessary be an obstruction to comprehension of the language (other than adding a degree of "noise"). I assume that this was your meaning.

Keyword reviewing does have value in that I am forced to actively recall the kanji form, whereas sentence drilling involves only passive recognition, even where the sentences are written out. However, there comes a point where a kanji becomes hardwired into your brain, never to be confused or forgotten (that's a bold statement, but I'm assuming that it is being occasionally encountered via other methods of input).

I also have a desire to get the english language completely out of my study programme. (No big political banner to wave here, it's just a personal preference).

Anyway, I wonder if anyone has allowed the keywords (english or otherwise) to drop away over time? Have you regretted it, or has it been a positive thing? I don't plan to do so without serious consideration of the consequences.

Floatingweed5 Member
From: Scotland UK Registered: 2007-03-10 Posts: 120

Brose/Nuke,

Sorry, your posts weren't up when I started replying.

I agree completely. I don't want to start a discussion about the effect of keywords on reading as I already know that once a word is recognised I don't even need to look closely at the individual kanji, less bother about the english keyword. I can pick it up just from the pattern on the page.

Bit of soul searching here... I guess that my frustration is stemming from the review system. Often I fail a kanji because the keyword is obtuse or can be interpreted in a number of different ways and I don't link it back properly. Even when the kanji is one which I am utterly familiar. At those times it feels like I am working not on remembering the kanji, but on re-enforcing the keyword.

This is especially true now that I finished the book a couple of months ago. The kanji that I'm reviewing regularly are largely those that I have weak connections between the keyword and the character. Do I really want to work for 30 minutes per day to re-enforce this link, or is there a better way to spend that energy?

Obviously throwing away the whole review system would be disasterous, but this is a genuine frustration which I'd like to overcome.

Terhorst Member
Registered: 2007-05-25 Posts: 65

We start out kanji-sick, so a crutch is just the thing to get someone off the ground quickly. But I like "bridge" better.

RTK is a bridge, and mighty convenient.

Floatingweed5 Member
From: Scotland UK Registered: 2007-03-10 Posts: 120

Terhorst, I hope you're not taking the p**s with that kanji in your sig  wink

suffah Member
From: New York Registered: 2006-09-14 Posts: 261

Floatingweed, since you mention a review deck do you use Anki?

I think it'd be easy to just edit the cards that you no longer want to retain via Heisig and replace it with a J-J definition or even a sentence.  When the "offending" card pops up just hit Control + E and you can instantly adjust the card as needed.

Floatingweed5 Member
From: Scotland UK Registered: 2007-03-10 Posts: 120

suffah wrote:

Floatingweed, since you mention a review deck do you use Anki?

I think it'd be easy to just edit the cards that you no longer want to retain via Heisig and replace it with a J-J definition or even a sentence.  When the "offending" card pops up just hit Control + E and you can instantly adjust the card as needed.

It's iFlash I use, but the principle is the same, and I can edit cards mid-review.

I think I'm probably too afraid to take the radical step removing cards completely from my review cycle at the moment, so your suggestion is probably the best way forward. If I come across a kanji which I can associate with a known japanese word better than the Heisig keyword I'll replace it, highlighting the reading of the character with brackets. iFlash supports multiple card sides, so I should be able to keep the Heisig keyword on a separate side for reference (or to backtrack if I find I've made a horrible mistake!)

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