samusam
Member
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-01-07
Posts: 22
Just out of curiosity, how many monolinguals are there here? I ask because I've been mildly discouraged by the discovery that Khatzumoto of AJATT fame was by no means monolingual when he started his Japanese-learning experiment. Indeed he spoke three languages as a child (he admits to having let two of those three languages slip away). I've always been under the impression (and some quick web searches have confirmed I'm not alone in being under the impression) that bilinguals (or multilinguals) learn additional languages much more quickly than monolinguals are able to learn their second language. Research hasn't quite figured out why yet, as far as I can tell. But I can hazard a guess it has a lot to do with brain wiring.
Any thoughts?
alantin
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2007-05-02
Posts: 346
Well.. I get along in four languages with japanese included and the other three being finnish (my native language), english, and swedish. Currently I am studying german which feels quite easy because I can understand quite a bit just knowing english and swedish and lots of grammar makes sense immediately because it's often close to the other two language. I think most of the time this is the secret behind the multilinguals advantage in learning new languages.
On the other hand, when I started studying japanese, because it's an isolate language, nothing made sense quite in the same way and the only advantage was the number of twisted english loanwords (i.e. the katakana english).
So in this respect I think we multilinguals are in the same boat with english speaking monolinguals.
It might be that, having previous experiense in language studies, I was less inclined to make some basic mistakes like for example, I hear, some people keep thinking in their own language and then translate that into the target language without really trying to start thinking in the language as soon as possible, etc..
But I think those are minor things that can be learnt to avoid pretty quickly..
Edit: Here I assumed the polylingual to mean anyone who can really use more than one language..
Last edited by alantin (2008 February 07, 11:59 am)
timcampbell
Member
From: 北京
Registered: 2007-11-04
Posts: 187
I've been thinking about this as well. I have passable french, and basic conversational Cantonese, both of which I've learned as an adult. (I had to take french in school, but we all know how useless that is).
It's seems to me the advantage of learning a third language, compared to a second language, is you already know how to think outside your native language. I thought exclusively in English for 40 years. Once my French reached a point where I could watch French TV (with the assistance of French subtitles) or meet with friends and speak french for several hours, I discovered my brain could easily remain in French - I could think to myself in french, curse to myself in french, even write a grocery list in french. My abilities had reached a point where I was no longer translating english-french, but going solo french. That feeling was a very powerful discovery for me. It gives a real sense of confidence that you can succeed in a second language, and you have now learned to shut off your native language, which for monolinguals is very difficult to do.
That said, my Japanese level is not at the point yet where I can think completely in japanese, but when speaking japanese with friends it's much easier now for me to turn off my english, hence avoiding translation whenever possible - and I think it's that ability which allows another language to progress quickly. My Japanese is now improving much faster, and much more naturally, than my french or cantonese ever did at this level of study.
Apart from the "brain wiring" factors that may exist, in some circumstances the advantages in knowing more than one language are more direct and simple.
For example, there are 100 times more resources, books, sites, etc in English than there are in Italian (and often they are of a higher quality).
So, while studying Japanese, I was greatly helped by my knowledge of English.
rich_f
Member
From: north carolina
Registered: 2007-07-12
Posts: 1708
While I was in Japan, I noticed a few things.
When I stayed in a hotel, and it had CNNJ (which is mostly in English if you want it) or the BBC, the more I listened to it, the worse my Japanese became.
If the hotel (usually tiny business hotels, because they're cheap) only had JP TV, then my Japanese either stayed at level or improved a little.
I'm thinking that a lot of that is due to just being surrounded by it constantly, and more importantly, not letting yourself slip too easily into English mode. As the trip went on, I tried to avoid using English as much as possible, and it helped.
The other thing I noticed, which amused me to no end, was that when I got back to the States, I would sometimes say "どうもありがとうござました" (really fast) to store clerks when I finished paying. I even caught myself saying "すみません～" to someone I almost bumped into at the parking lot. 
It really does become a habit after a while.
My background in languages is about 5-6 years of French in school (which I promptly forgot, except to confuse it with the German I have trouble remembering), 1 semester of Russian in HS (of which I only remember how to say "I don't speak Russian" and recognize cyrillic), 4 semesters of German in undergrad (which still makes my mom's side of the family in Germany cry-- I really should study more German sometime), and then after a long break, 6 semesters of Japanese in grad school and beyond. Japanese is SO different, and so difficult, that I'm becoming obsessed with it. XD
But even though my mom is German, I didn't grow up in a bilingual house. Sometimes I think she should have just spoken German to me all the time anyway, but I think she was always trying to improve her English.
Nukemarine
Member
From: 神奈川
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2347
alantin wrote:
rich_f wrote:
The other thing I noticed, which amused me to no end, was that when I got back to the States, I would sometimes say "どうもありがとうござました" (really fast) to store clerks when I finished paying. I even caught myself saying "すみません～" to someone I almost bumped into at the parking lot. It really does become a habit after a while.
I believe that's one symptom of "returning home culture-shock".
Well.. Perhaps I shouldn't be talking. I almost spoke Japanese in the Finnish customs and even now though having been here for almost a year since leaving Japan and I still say "頂きます" before every meal..
Another small thing that doesn't really have a good equivalent in any other language and that I'm really missing is: "宜しくお願いします"..
Hmm, is it 戴きます 【いただきます】(exp) expression of gratitude before meals, (P)
or
頂く 【いただく】 (v5k) (hum) to receive, to take food or drink, to be crowned with, to wear, to live under (a ruler), to install (a president), to accept, to buy, to take, (P)
Only reason I ask is I put a sentence with it in my SRS and would like to have it right.
nagisa
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2005-12-26
Posts: 21
While I'm by no means an expert, I have taken a few linguistics courses recently at university so I can at least tell you a bit about current linguistic theory regarding language acquisition (and anybody with more experience in the field, please correct any mistakes I make.)
The current accepted theory has to do with something called "universal grammar". Basically, when you learn your first language you will then adapt any languages you learn after this by using your universal grammar (that of your first language). Young children learn languages quickly, so before a certain age they can actually acquire more than one universal grammar.
Essentially, people who acquire more than one universal grammar can then use both when learning new languages, which makes the process much easier. After a certain age unfortunately, most people can't get that second language to be at the same level as the first.
Hopefully that makes sense, though again I'm no expert. I'll admit I dropped linguistics after 200 level because I needed to focus on my intensive japanese course.
vosmiura
Member
From: SF Bay Area
Registered: 2006-08-24
Posts: 1085
I guess that knowing more languages helps to make more connenctions, especially when the languages have some things in common.
I'm bylingual, and I find that there are different things that are similar between those languages and Japanese. For example in English the word "so" shares (apparently by coincidence) common reading and meaning with Japanese.
My other language (Romanian) has "si" pronounced "し" and means "and", so it is also (coincidentally) related to the "し" particle used to "and" verbs together in Japanese.
Just that kind of little thing helps comprehension sink in quicker in those cases.
Another thing is that if you've got practice learning languages then you already have experience in how to go about doing it. I did not 'learn' my two languages per se, so I don't know how best to learn a third.
Last edited by vosmiura (2008 February 07, 9:13 pm)
phauna
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2007-12-25
Posts: 500
Website
Well, I think for monolinguals L1 interference (your native language) is really strong in your brain, both mentally and possibly physically, connection wise. Lots of monolinguals start out trying for a one for one, word to word type learning of vocabulary. Also, translation from the L1 when producing seems logical when using a new language but quickly becomes unnatural and unusable.
Other factors include:
Not knowing what's most useful to learn initially - some words, phrases and functional language are much more useful and common for a beginner to learn. It seems common sense, but most learners try to learn any new word they come across, regardless of value.
Trying to learn something perfectly before moving on to the next thing - I've had many classes sidetracked by overly worried students demanding more and more time for practice, questions and explication. You can't learn anything completely in one day.
Overlooking the skill aspect of language learning and concentrating too heavily on the knowledge aspect - Skill and knowledge are separate, and must be practised, even if you go AJATT, eventually. Input is cool, but you do have to practice letting it all out in stressful situations sometimes. Input and output must both be practised. Feel free to wait a long time before outputting, but when you are ready be as motivated as you were to watch fifteen animes in a row when practising input.
Most of these things are just things taught by experience, so I suppose that is the main advantage for prior language learners. Not being afraid to fail, to make mistakes is also a big issue.
Count me in as mono.
