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hey guys. i will try to make my predicament quick.
so after like 4 semesters of japanese in college i decided to self study. i started with RTK1 and after a few months finished all 2000.
then after a few more months, moving on to tae kim and KO2001, i abandoned my RTK1 deck. i guess it just became frustrating. i was still scoring relatively well in my reviews, keyword -> kanji, but not so much actually able to see a kanji and being able to recognize the keyword as the kanji got more obscure (for instance i had no trouble easily "getting" the gist of 一日 but 実施 was a bit more difficult).
so i dropped my RTK1 deck and just did KO2001, finished that and had been doing pretty well but it was very hard to identify certain ko2001 vocab outside of the ko2001 deck and its sentences.
i think that maybe my brain becomes trained to understand the card\fact\whatever piece of knowledge within the context of the study but outside not so much.
so cut to now, after repeatedly failing certain ko2001 cards over and over again i decided to make a vocab deck to study the words i was having trouble with, along with new vocab i'd pick up from studying. but over the past month, i had some computer access issues or time issues, so the vocab deck ballooned up (it had been going well, review wise up until that point) and coming back to that deck was difficult. all the vocab cards that were overdue were essentially 90% forgotten in the sense that i could "recognize" the word as being familiar, maybe even understanding a little about it (for instance 背筋 having something to do with the back [i was reading ballroom e yokoso if anyone is like wondering where such a specific word came from lol]) and once i saw the hiragana and definition it'd make sense, but it almost feels like learning the word again.
anyway okay, the MAIN point of this.
i wonder if i've hit a plateau in my study where if a simple month off can derail my vocab deck so much, maybe my fundamentals aren't so sound and that there is a more efficient way to study. perhaps doing RTK1 over again, maybe in the ko2001 order + other kanji found in vocab i pick up from manga.
my concern being, my kanji knowledge BEYOND the first 200-300 most common or so, is fairly weak. i know and am experienced enough to be able to learn vocab decently without really knowing anything specific about the kanji itself, but maybe this whole thing would be a lot easier if i saw 実施 and all the other words like i do 一日.
the one concern i have is that, while RTK1 was helpful and i'm glad i did it, i had a hard time making it useful after it had done the great job of exposing me to so many kanji and helping my mind to be able to unconsciously (cause i sure don't do it consciously lol) separate and recognize kanji.
or maybe words like 実施 will never be close to 一日 and i should just plow on with vocab, probably restarting the deck and rebuilding anew?
Ok first of all, 1 month off from reviews would derail pretty much ANYONE. For myself, I can't even imagine it. I'd have like over 5000 due cards. So you're going to need to work on that. Daily reviewing makes things easier for you in the long run. If you have a smart phone, ipad, android device, etc, you can probably get the anki app, which is definitely a worthwhile purchase if access to a computer is an issue.
Second, you might not like this advice, but in my opinion you should probably redo RTK. I was in a similar situation not so long ago. I dropped my RTK reviews right after I finished for the first time, and the kanji became more and more vague and intimidating in my mind. It makes vocab learning a lot harder if you're just recognizing them as shapes. When you can associate them with a keyword, you get a natural mneumonic with the way two or more will add together to form a word, and you start to memorize the on-yomi as well, which becomes important later. I think you'll find the overall process just getting much easier if you redo RTK. I did it less than a year ago and I honestly can't sympathize with you anymore on the 実施 vs 一日 thing. It's all the same to me these days.. even more complex stuff like 憂鬱.
So I think what's going to push you forward is redoing RTK, and adopting good study habits. Keep up daily with reviews (only a few gaps if you really can't manage), and choose a number of new cards to add daily and sticking to it. For RTK, with 20-40/day, you'll breeze through it in no time.
edit: I just realized I didn't really address the issue of not being able to go kanji->keyword, even if you have passed the keyword->kanji anki cards. It happens to the best of us. If it does happen, just look up the kanji on the site, and read over your story. The vocab card should reinforce the connection, and you'll start recognizing it no problem. I don't think this negates the benefits of doing RTK. It is just testing your knowledge in a new, unexpected way, and that's why it can be a bit troublesome.
Last edited by Haych (2013 July 21, 10:21 pm)
Personally, I think you should plow on with vocabulary instead of redoing RTK1. At least, don't focus on it entirely. It's a great resource, but I always felt that it's best at teaching you how to see kanji in a more efficient way. Since starting on vocab, I haven't reviewed my RTK deck at all and I'm still doing fine with vocab. Of course, there will always be a couple of cards that will cause you trouble, but for the most part, it's just a matter of keeping up with reviews.
Anyway, do what you want. I always think it's better to test things for yourself, since there's no way we can know exactly where and why you are having problems under these circumstances. Now, if you were to go forward a decade or so...
As for having difficulty with kanji->keyword... I guess it's the same as what I said above. Reading isn't just recalling keywords, so as long as you understand the gist of what you're seeing, the patterns will reveal themselves to you again when you study vocabulary. Especially so if you are learning vocabulary grouped by kanji like in KO2001 or Core 2k/6k Optimized Japanese Vocabulary decks.
Haych wrote:
Second, you might not like this advice, but in my opinion you should probably redo RTK.
I don't have much advice for the OP except to say "do not do this".
Problems with remembering Japanese vocabulary are not solved by spending more time remembering English keywords for individual Chinese characters.
Don't re-do RTK. Keep doing vocabulary, it doesn't get easier until several hundred vocab are under your belt. Timebox and set schedules. Taking extended breaks is bad however relearning is easier than learning. In my experience, I found working on grammar to be a nice change of pace so maybe incorporate that into your daily studying.
just want to say, i am currently leaning on re-doing RTK right now but only the 1000 kanji that are in the first two KO2001 books of which i have finished which i think puts my vocab somewhere at 1500-2000 words?
i mean i can learn vocab. i had been doing it fine before the massive delay but i just wonder if i had a better footing with kanji, that it would be easier to learn words. also i was worrying about perhaps hitting a wall and plateauing taking on more and more vocab of less and less familiar kanji.
my goal with possibly re-doing RTK for the KO2001 kanji is not really to associate english keywords and stories with kanji but just to get more familiar with them so i can recognize them and remember them far easier.
cause kanji is important right? or is it not once you've exposed yourself to it enough? because i've certainly had a lot of exposure.
when you guys learn a new word, or like 20-30 a day, does how familiar you are with the kanji used play no significant role?
I think that's a good idea, and would help you. Of course, we've seen some other opinions here. I think they are worried that it looks like a step backwards, and that is demotivating. But doing a trimmed down version of RTK sounds like a good plan. That will let you get it over with quickly, which is important for motivation.
I just think you'll find the vocab learning process more comfortable. Knowing keywords is mostly good for just helping you keep the kanji discrete in your mind. Otherwise you might find yourself mixing up your 摩 with your 磨, or your 熱 with your 燃, or even just 私 with 和. Bringing them together like this might make it seem obvious, but in 'the wild'? Not so much. These days I usually learn at least 40 new words, sometimes upwards of 100, and the first thing I do ALWAYS with a new word is identify the kanji keywords. So I'd say it's pretty important.
trumpet wrote:
i mean i can learn vocab. i had been doing it fine before the massive delay but i just wonder if i had a better footing with kanji, that it would be easier to learn words. also i was worrying about perhaps hitting a wall and plateauing taking on more and more vocab of less and less familiar kanji.
No because you are getting diminishing returns now. Arguably doing RTK1 once gives you the leg up for familiarity which makes words a little easier, but RTK is always much easier than the huge amount of effort you need to remember so much vocabulary - and there is really no way around it.
You have already done RTK1 once so it should be somewhat easier. You aren't going to become less familiar with Kanji as you learn more vocabulary because you are seeing them constantly in words they are actually used in. That is, you are moving from RTK1 english keywords which is little more itself than a party trick, to actually learning Japanese.
Doing RTK again might give you some slight tiny benefit. But I expect the difference would be extremely marginal. Infact it could hurt you since you would be losing familiarity with the Japanese that you have already learned.
my goal with possibly re-doing RTK for the KO2001 kanji is not really to associate english keywords and stories with kanji but just to get more familiar with them so i can recognize them and remember them far easier.
This will naturally happen as you study more and more Japanese. Kanji do not necessarily have to be studied separately.
cause kanji is important right? or is it not once you've exposed yourself to it enough? because i've certainly had a lot of exposure.
Kanji is important yes, but its not as important as knowing the Japanese language itself, and the more you delay that the worse it is for yourself. And the more you read and study the more natural exposure you will get and the more you will improve.
when you guys learn a new word, or like 20-30 a day, does how familiar you are with the kanji used play no significant role?
For me it helps if I already know the readings from other words, but recognising the Kanji doesn't help at all. Its not unusual to stumble across words where they have irregular readings (or just ones you haven't seen before) and if anything I find this makes it harder to remember. I came across the word 店子 yesterday, which is pronounced as たなこ. Of course I've seen the character 店 in thousands of places in the years I've been studying Japanese, but having it used in this word isn't helpful at all for me to remember its たなこ.
What I'm saying is, new words where you already know the readings are somewhat easier, but if you don't have that then the "familiarity" you are talking about is mostly useless for me and has very little benefit.
Haych wrote:
I think that's a good idea, and would help you. Of course, we've seen some other opinions here. I think they are worried that it looks like a step backwards, and that is demotivating. But doing a trimmed down version of RTK sounds like a good plan. That will let you get it over with quickly, which is important for motivation.
I'm not worried about it being demotivating as just a total waste of time. Learning Japanese is really hard and takes a ton of time, and Kanji make up only one relatively small aspect of all that. Studying Kanji over and over again is very misdirected energy, in my mind.
If its something you enjoy and its fun for you then whatever, it doesn't matter. If you are worried about how best to study Japanese in an efficient manner then the repetition is best avoided.
I just think you'll find the vocab learning process more comfortable. Knowing keywords is mostly good for just helping you keep the kanji discrete in your mind. Otherwise you might find yourself mixing up your 摩 with your 磨, or your 熱 with your 燃, or even just 私 with 和. Bringing them together like this might make it seem obvious, but in 'the wild'? Not so much. These days I usually learn at least 40 new words, sometimes upwards of 100, and the first thing I do ALWAYS with a new word is identify the kanji keywords. So I'd say it's pretty important.
I've never used RTK or used keywords so of course I'd argue its not "pretty important" and I often go through phases of studying up to 100 new words a day. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you mix up those characters, because normally from the context of whatever you are reading it will be obvious what word its supposed to mean.
Yeah, you might sometimes think "Oh hey, I never realised that Kanji X is the same one used in this word" - this seems to bother people but in practice just doesn't matter. And over time these problems will go away by themselves anyway, as long as you are actually studying and putting in the time.
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