Not sure if I should post this in this topic but I'm having the same sort of problem. Maybe this would benefit both me and the TC. Sorry if it seems like I'm hijacking the topic man.

Basically I'm 589 words into Core 6k after working on RTK for about...4 months. I try to read 10 pages of Japanese a day, listen to 30 mins of the news, I'll spend an hour- 2 hours in Anki doing Core, writing out the sentences on the first go, sounding them out, and repeating the audio. For reviews, I just sound out the word and write it out and move on. Reviews first naturally.

On any given day, it takes me an 1-1 and 1/2 hours to review 50-60 cards and write out 30 new vocab words. Like mentioned before in this topic, I try to imagine every situation in which the new word would apply when learning it first and writing out the whole sentence. I make sure to break up the sentence in bite size chunks at first so I can review the grammar as well.

The thing is, I seem to be losing the meanings of a bunch of keywords for the kanji, at the cost of being able to see them clearly. I seem to be picking up the meanings of kanji I see in compounds like 食事, as in I know it has a meaning of "the matter of a meal" or some such thing, but when I see 事 in other words like 事故, I seem to remember that the last compound is "happenstance", and just think like "this kanji would be an unfortunate accident" or some such thing when attempting to remember the compound order. I would not know or care that the first kanji has the keyword of "a matter".

I had got the advice that writing out the kanji during vocab reviews would cover having to do RTK. Was I mislead? Or is forgetting the keywords like this supposed to happen so soon after encoutering so many vocab words in a month?

If it also matters, I switched over to Anki after using the site, and have to start from the beginning of the deck. According to the deck, I'm 700+ cards in. I'm not sure if I should stop vocab and just review to get that deck knocked out or to keep studying and adding new vocab, and work on that deck one day a week.

I'm about 930 words into Core but my vocabulary is closer to ~1400 because I have been going through the Genki Vocab deck too (finish this week! ).  In general, learning new vocab words will fall into one of 3 categories:
-Words I already know because I hear/see them everywhere (約束、絶対、etc)
-Words that are larger constructions of multiple smaller words I already know (海外旅行、交通事故、etc)
-Words that are completely new to me.

The first two sets are fairly easy to remember and are self-reinforcing thanks to the "connecting the dots" I'm doing in my head piecing words together.  The last one is tricky, and where most of my lapses come from.  For these, mnemonics (usually in english) work well to keep me remembering them.  Or just brute forcing it, but that is usually a smaller group.

I finished RTK1 before starting core, and generally remembering the kanji in each word is not that difficult (instead the kana, and expecially the okurigana in verbs), as most of the time the meaning makes sense with the word.  My RTK review retention is starting to go down the drain ~8 months later, but as long as my vocab reps stay above 90% I'm happy.

Vempele wrote:

arnaldosfjunior wrote:

Before asking next time, just type the word and look in the IME　list please.

how is memorizing an irregular reading supposed to make it easier to remember the word?

How about start with this 穴埋め漢字問題, I found online. The answer is in the end.

　　　　　　　　真
　　　　　　　　↓
　　　　　発→囗→算
　　　　　　　　↓
　　　　　　　　地

Who is talking about memorizing irregular reading for 心算-しんさん? Did you drink all the bottle or you still have something for me? I was showing the 熟字訓 for the word つもり.

It's incredible how you didn't find it cleared enough googling for it. Maybe you didn't have the 積もり・積り・心算 【つもり】 to do so, or Am I wrong, hum?
大辞林 第三版
http://kotobank.jp/word/%E7%A9%8D%E3%82 … 3%E7%AE%97
Btw,

Vempele wrote:

how is memorizing an irregular reading supposed to make it easier to remember the word?

Let's suppose it was the case. Simple: you only work one time. Instead of memorizing it one time, and, when you come across the same word in the future with an irregular reading, you would have to re-memorize it for other reading. It just saves time being familiar with the 当て字 or the 熟字訓 from the beginning.
Note:
当て字 specifically using characters for phonetic value. でたらめ-出鱈目
熟字訓 semantic value rather than phonetic value. パンダ-熊猫

There's a version of core10k here in the forum with the pitch accent for the words added. Instead of memorizing all words meanings and after this process begin to learn the pitch accent, why don't learning both same time with this spreadsheet?

You didn't need to search in other dictionaries to begin with. Don't IME has a dictionary and つもり　shows side by side with 心算?



teruminionさん did this question in 知恵袋：
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa … 1281210362
yoshikonation1956さん
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa … 1369074068
other dictionary
http://homepage3.nifty.com/giboshi/kaijitbl026.htm


1004     言語     当字249     心算     　     つもり
999     言語     当字244     一寸     　     ちょっと　I'm not talking about memorizing いっすん
2162     人事     人間7     貴方     　     あなた
1014     言語     当字259     如何     　     どう    
1017     言語     当字262     何処     　     どこ
1024     言語     当字269     隧道     　     トンネル　　I'm not talking about memorizing すいどう
1098     言語     当字343     反吐     　     へど
1184     言語     動作1     嗚呼     　     ああ３     　
1185     言語     動作2     于嗟     　     ああ４     　
1186     言語     動作3     吁嗟     　     ああ５     　
1187     言語     動作4     嗟呼     　     ああ６
2156     人事     人間1     彼奴     　     あいつ
1188     言語     動作5     欠伸     　     あくび2
772     言語     当字17     彼処     　     あそこ     　
773     言語     当字18     彼所     　     あそ
666     言語     助副1     宛も     　     あたかも
780     言語     当字25     彼方此方     　     あちこち
782     言語     当字27     彼方     　     あちら
あっち【彼方】の意味
｢あながち【強ち】｣
「彼辺此辺(あべこべ)」
1285     言語     様子9     可笑しい     　     おかしい
lots and lots of words with お　are replace with 御
1283     言語     様子7     美味しい     　     おいしい
1282     言語     様子6     五月蠅い     　     うるさい
えび　蝦
靨・笑窪    えくぼ   
うろつく【彷徨く】
有耶無耶（うやむや）
五月蝿い・五月蠅い・煩い　うるさい
1279     言語     様子3     上手い     　     うまい     　
1280     言語     様子4     美味い     　     うまい２
285     衣食住     料理8     饂飩     　     うどん
嫌嫌・厭厭・嫌々・厭々　いやいや
嫌に・厭に　いやに
嫌らしい・厭らしい　いやらしい
814     言語     当字60     悪戯     　     いたずら     　
髭・×鬚・×髯　ひげ
膝　ひざ
肘　ひじ

..........


As you study more Japanese, it begins to feel easier to memorize by the kanji in it. core10k comes with lots of non-kanjified words. If you kanjify them, it's just easier.Why do you think chinese gets vocabulary down 10x faster than European language speakers?

By the way, Vempele, please, add a dictionary for 漢字検定 in your list of dictionaries from now on. By the same logic you used to defend your point of view, you couldn't understand a ２ちゃねる thread too. 25% words there (or more depending on the level of formality and topic) are not in the dictionary. Now, just take into account an informal conversation in the real world full time non-dictionary guided and you'd be crazy.　Not every people's name reading are in the dictionary(ex:actress 武井 咲（たけい 「えみ」).　and 絵文字(I can create one right now for this matter)?

Now, as I type this message, There are lots of new vocab been created by people in an infinite circle which will not stop until the Armageddon or the emancipation of the earth-colonies in Mars. Language is just infinite and webbing more connections in the brain to learn words don't hurt.

Answer for the game:

　　　　　　　　真
　　　　　　　　↓
　　　　　発→心→算
　　　　　　　　↓
　　　　　　　　地


真囗　→　真心（まごころ）

発囗　→　発心（ほっしん）
発心とは、悟りを得ようとする心を起こすこと。物事を始めようと思い立つこと。

囗算　→　心算（つもり）

囗地　→　心地（ここち）


See? Even for playing, knowing more kanjified words helps a lot.

There are 549 カタカナ　words in the field WORD in core10k. Most of them if not all instantly memorizable for English speakers. If you focus only on the word you learn nothing. Why not the 漢字 for them. If nothing more, you're expanding your brain connections for kanji.
278     衣食住     料理1     氷菓子     　     アイスクリーム
1426     植物     果実8     甜橙     　     オレンジ    
611     言語     仮名16     加特力     　     カトリック    
607     言語     仮名12     瓦斯     　     ガス    
609     言語     仮名14     型録     　     カタログ
614     言語     仮名19     基督     　     キリスト
1326     鉱材     材料8     硝子     　     ガラス     　
906     言語     当字152     倶楽部     　     クラブ     　

Last edited by arnaldosfjunior (2013 July 22, 11:39 pm)

dizmox wrote:

arnaldosfjunior wrote:

uisukii wrote:

Correct me If I'm making a poor assumption, but wouldn't 「つもり-心算」 be:

つもり-積もり
しんさん- 心算

http://www.geocities.jp/bunakobo/kan/ateji.htm

Before asking next time, just type the word and look in the IME　list please.

http://theimagehost.net/upload/57dab9f7 … 692a57.jpg

つもり is written in hiragana except for certain contexts.
心算（しんさん） is a different word altogether.

You're right!
つもり is written in hiragana except for certain contexts which includes 心算　as listed for preparation for the 漢字検定一級 or registered in 大辞林 .
心算（しんさん） is a different word altogether.

1004     言語     当字249     心算     　     つもり    
http://www.geocities.jp/bunakobo/kan/ateji.htm
大辞林 第三版
http://kotobank.jp/word/%E7%A9%8D%E3%82 … 3%E7%AE%97

Last edited by arnaldosfjunior (2013 July 22, 8:04 pm)

...

Wow at all this.

Rather than wait for a response towards my situation, I just decided to suck it up an plug at the RTK Anki deck as well, doing 50 "new" cards a day in addtion to 30 new vocab cards. It'll fix itself one way or the other. I've already decided I'm never doing another story in RTK again. The benefit at this point would be marginal at best.

You deleted a mod edit after you broke the rules and were warned. Enjoy your month vacation from the forum.

http://forum.koohii.com/misc.php?action=rules

Courtesy

This website is a labour of love, animosity or competition will not be tolerated.

Last edited by arnaldosfjunior (2013 July 24, 3:22 pm)

On top of pushing on; it seems that as the words continue to amass in your brain, they form a web of sorts, making it easy to trap newer words. The hardest part of building a web (I'd have to assume) is laying down the first few strands, after all.

Sorry for not responding earlier. Life gets in the way.


I did read the guide(thanks by the way for undertaking that task), so I apologize if it seemed I didn't. I've just been studying Japanese on and off for 6 years, getting serious about it this year, making more progress in these 6 months than ANYTHING I've done before, and  trying to learn to deal with that feeling that feels like burnout when my current learning method doesn't seem to be working. I've been really careful about recognizing it and just switching up what I'm doing in Japanese at the moment. Seems to be working so far. And yes, I'm taking your advice into consideration as well.

If I may ask, do you still do RTK this far in your studies? And do you know if even Japanese people have to do some sort of thing to keep the kanji fresh in their minds? I understand that they have constant exposure to it, but I'm a little skeptical that most of the Japanese population can write 3000-5000 kanji offhand just perfectly.

PkmnTrainerAbram wrote:

but I'm a little skeptical that most of the Japanese population can write 3000-5000 kanji offhand just perfectly.

Maybe you're confusing Japanese with Chinese? The claim that most of the Japanese population can write 3000-5000 kanji offhand is a rather odd thing for anyone to claim.

I am only 1500 words into core10k but here are some random things that have helped me.

- I start with the entire deck suspended and add words manually. This allows me to use my own judgement and pick words that might be easy to learn together rather than have them appear in whatever order the deck is in.

- I add new words in batches of 5-8, then I review them, then I do more new words. At first I was adding 20+ in a single go and when I came to start reviewing I had forgotten them already.

- When selecting words to learn I try and find related words. For example a single kanji like 宅 has three words with the same reading and similar meanings so I add them as a group. I also look for opposite type words, i.e. hot/cold, fast/slow or words that are otherwise related to help reinforce each other.

- I use some mnemonics to help remember readings but not many, and mainly when I find a word that is taking a while to remember.

- When reviewing I ignore everything except the word and I try and review words fast (~10 seconds/card). This means I fail words I might have worked out if I had 20+ seconds to umm and arr over, but it means I can do 100 reviews in 20 minutes so I can handle adding new words faster, or do more reading/production practice.

- I am lenient on failed cards if its new, and select hard, until it reaches about the 5-6 day review time at which point I am very aggressive about failing it. So far I am stubborn and haven't suspended any cards but the highest failure rate on a card is only 6 so far.

- Often I will fail cards because I don't read the complete kanji. I see a primitive and and pick a word without looking at the rest of the kanji.

- In the evenings when I go to bed I try and see how many of the new words I can recall, and I do the same thing the following morning while riding to work or whatever.

- I also do a lot of production practice each day and try and use the new words as much as I can.

You will fail a lot of cards, it doesn't matter, let anki do it's job. If your not failing a bunch of cards each session you are not adding enough new words each day!

The more words you learn the easier it becomes. I know so many kanji with the きゅう reading now that when I come across a new one its easy to slot it into the same place in my head where all the other kanji sit with that reading. This is harder at the beginning when every new word has strange and different new readings.

Some people brought up mnemonics for vocabulary. While visual mnemonics really help with RTK and kanji I didn't find them all that useful for vocabulary. It's very easy for one's mnemonics to get cluttered with homophones, synonyms, etc. with vocabulary that simply wasn't much of an issue with RTK. I think this is partly due to the fact that Heisig planned out the kanji in such an order to minimize potential mnemonic conflict. With vocab, there is no such system of which I'm aware. Even if there were, I would seriously doubt its efficacy.

Just like the kanji, vocabulary acquisition gets easier as you progress and you start to see patterns. You hit plateaus. The first 200 or so words might be easy, while the next 500 or so are difficult, but then the next 1000 are "easy". Of course, this is different for everyone but you get the idea.

Personally, I've found that learning vocabulary solely from "immersion" (i.e. native Japanese materials, speaking with native speakers, etc.) isn't that effective. Contact with native materials certainly solidifies one's knowledge—it transforms it from passive knowledge to active knowledge—but it is a very ineffective way to acquire new words.

To me, one needs to study vocabulary on its own and then use other materials to "understand" the vocabulary and really own it. I like to think of vocabulary as bricks, we need to acquire a bunch of them in order to build a house but it's not until we add other things (mortar and order) that they can be fully utilized. This is where flash card programs come in (I may be biased as I've written an iPhone application that focuses solely on vocabulary, but I only did so after realizing these things through my own studies). Basically, I learn and "drill" new words with software. At this point they precariously exist in my memory. However, when one of those precariously understood words is heard, whether it be through reading a 小説, talking to friends in Japanese, watching a ドラマ, or something else, I have that "Aha" moment and the word is forever mine. You need to give yourself these words so that they may be solidified through contact with native materials. You can't hope to simply learn new things through osmosis. Anyway, that's my 2¢. As always, YMMV.