I think our different perspectives boil down to whether explicit learning of individual word pronunciation is worth the time investment.
I quit RTK because it only helped me get farmiliar with kanji. I relied too much on mnemonics even after 3 months passed. In the same way I suspect you guys would rather acquire pitch accent implicitly and without conscious thought from the start, rather than go through a stage of consciously thinking about how to pronounce words. After all, we didn't have to do it growing up.
However, I do think it's necessary to make a directed effort at properly learning the pronounciation of Japanese words, because 1) it gurantees quality control and 2) mnemonic aids are useless for memorising word pitch; it can only be done by rote and active listening -- I don't support the idea of trying to learn pitch from written descriptions if that's what you guys are thinking. My only practical point is that failing/re-learning incorrectly pronounced words (with audio for reference, obviously) is better than passing them in an SRS or ignoring the mistake. Inny Jan gave a better example, but it's important for all words, not just heteronyms (same reading, different pronunciation and meaning).
http://www.japaneseprofessor.com/lesson … devoicing/
[...] The basic idea of the article is that the physical frequency of Japanese speech doesn't line up with speakers' perception of pitch, making it impossible for nonnative speakers to derive an accurate pronunciation from the typical written description of pitch accent. Even more interesting, English "stress" accent is also found to be most significantly based on pitch, then duration, and finally loudness.
It would be interesting to see more research on what exactly Japanese pitch accent is, but it's not necessary for these purposes, because we can hear what it is, if only time is put towards noticing it, and learning it properly.
I'm aware than Japanese words don't always have the same accent all the time, and there are probably a few other pitch accent dictionaries like NHK and Shinmeikai with lots of information on phrase-level rules. Whether people choose to consult them or not, I'd expect a good accent to be derived from the result of knowing BOTH the pronunciation of individual words by themselves AND the accent shifts that occur within phrases, which can only be tested through reading production (at least before making some Japanese friends). The latter may or may not be assisted with the help of a pitch accent dictionary since it's down to the learner and whether they desire that knowledge or not.
In any case, lots of listening/shadowing ought to keep ones spoken Japanese on-or-above a good standard but it doesn't mean you shouldn't pay attention to pronunciation regardless.
I personally really want a native accent. I know at least three old classmates from high school who came to England with strong foreign accents, probably learning English in their early teens, who now speak and express themselves like they were raised here. I bumped into a couple of them last year (now 19-21, so 4-5 years later). I set the same standard for myself with Japanese. I'm certain that paying close attention to where pitches are and aren't will pay dividends down the line.
Edit: not that I'd refuse to speak Japanese because my accent is terrible, b/c the point of speaking is to develop speaking ability. Pronunciation still deserves its own time for attention.
nadiatims wrote:
Animosophy wrote:
^ very imaginative :3
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. But it's really not that much of a stretch. は is used in this kind of way all the time (ie. marking a non-subject word unconnected to the verb).
No sarcasm, I only meant well 8)
Last edited by Animosophy (2013 July 23, 11:04 am)
