Django wrote:

are there any other examples of Kanji that would be best served by being grouped elsewhere?

Here's a list of some characters which can be useful for learning or simplifying earlier ones. In each case I've first listed the character/primitive with its name and number, and then given one or more kanji (name & number only) which it earlier appeared in.

Most of these come from RTK3, but can they be helpful when learning kanji in RTK1.

I expect I've missed a few. If anyone spots any others and sends it to this thread I'll update the list and add them to it.

hole 穴 1316:     window 749
ability 能 2004:     bear 2003
sign of the hare 卯 2041:     willow 1421, egg 1422
this here 此 2043:     feminine 563, purple 1375
sheik (璃 right hand side of 2048):     detach 1492
shoeshine (憐 right hand side of 2051):     neighboring 1311
streetwalker (悛 right hand side of 2059):     tempt 766, sagacious 1014, acid 1437
mortar 臼 2063:     lagoon 2039
understandably 尤 2087:     concerning 1969
grab 采 2090:     pick 733
a 或 2091:     range 356, beguile 614
chop off 斬 2092:     temporarily 1134, steadily 1135
in the nick of time 愈 2433:     healing 2037
progress 晋 2436:     universal 1786
uncivilized 胡 2470:     lake 148
tight 窄 2614:     squeeze 1324
exclamation 耶 2680:     grandpa 2334, coconut tree 2524
about that time 頃 2791:     lean 1011
first day of the month 朔 2846:     1960 model
southeast 巽 2861:     elect 1804
Manchu dynasty 秦 2877:     hazel 2475
incandescent 赫 2908:     menacing / upbraid 2026
forked 叉 2914:     flea 2681
helping hand 丞 2919:     steam 1900
dragon (old) 龍 2981:     attack 2025
go smoothly 亨 3001:     stew 2549

To add to Katsuo's list

tryst 逢(2417)                sew 縫(1563)
grab 采 (2090)               pick 採(733) vegetable 菜(734) coloring 彩(1714)
folding screen 屏(2223)   fence 塀(1056)

Last edited by nolusu (2008 January 22, 2:33 pm)

Cheers, Katsuo, nolusu and adrianbarritt. Didn't realise there were so many, but it does make sense.

I've just this minute found out that the latest edition of RTKIII is finally available for purchase, so I reckon the list you've compiled may help out a few people.

Meolox, I feel your pain! Let's hope window is now conquered forever.

cangy wrote:

...when I saw hole being used there I had a look and realised that hole uses enter, while window uses human legs, so I reported those stories as a warning to others

Heisig wrote:

1316. hole. As a primitive, this kanji uses an alternate form: the primitive for "eight" is replaced with that for "human legs"

As Heisig mentions, when the "hole" radical appears as a part of other characters its form is always modified to include "human legs".

So it is correct to specify "window" = "hole" + "elbow" + "heart".

Here's an updated list; in fact two. I've included the other member's data above (thank you), plus a few more I came across.

There are now 35 (update: 42) primitives listed, affecting 45 (update: 55) keywords. I've put the list in two formats, the second is probably most convenient for people working through the book. First table as a spreadsheet.

1316 hole 穴:     749 window 窓
2004 ability 能:     2003 bear 熊
2041 sign of the hare 卯:     1421 willow 柳, 1422 egg 卵
2043 this here 此:     563 feminine 雌, 1375 purple 紫
2048 sheik (right hand side of　璃):     1492 detach 離
2051 shoeshine (right hand side of　憐):     1311 neighboring 隣
2059 streetwalker (right hand side of　悛):     766 tempt 唆, 1014 sagacious 俊, 1437 acid 酸
2063 mortar 臼:     2039 lagoon 潟
2087 understandably 尤:     1969 concerning 就
2090 grab 采:     733 pick 採, 734 vegetable 菜, 1714 coloring 彩
2091 a 或:     356 range 域, 614 beguile 惑
2092 chop off 斬:     1134 temporarily 暫, 1135 steadily 漸
2181 dumbfounded 呆:     997 protect 保
2223 folding screen 屏:     1056 fence 塀
2238 shire 庄:    923 cosmetics 粧, 1024 squat/sit 座
2433 in the nick of time 愈:     2037 healing 癒
2417 tryst 逢:     1563 sew 縫
2431 instantaneously 忽:     2277 infatuation 惚
2436 progress 晋:     1786 universal 普
2446 limpid 晃:     410 canopy 幌
2451 dusk 昏:     1830 marriage 婚
2463 rib 肋:     941 muscle 筋
2470 uncivilized 胡:     148 lake 湖
2569 apprehensive 畏:     2336 indecent 猥
2584 pheasant 雉:     2353 trim 薙
2614 tight 窄:     1324 squeeze 搾
2622 concubine 妾:     672 touch 接
2637 ancient harp 筑:    950 fabricate 築
2680 exclamation 耶:     2334 grandpa 爺, 2524 coconut tree 椰
2791 about that time 頃:     1011 lean 傾
2846 first day of the month 朔:     1960 model 塑
2861 southeast 巽:     1804 elect 選
2872 start 孟:     1456 fierce 猛
2877 Manchu dynasty 秦:     2475 hazel 榛
2906 chieftain 酋:     1438 furthermore/ waver 猶, 1439 revered 尊, 2425 courtesy 鄭, 2493 Japanese oak 楢
2908 incandescent 赫:     2026 menacing / upbraid 嚇
2914 forked 叉:     2681 flea 蚤
2915 rose of Sharon 舜:     817 wink 瞬
2919 helping hand 丞:     1900 steam 蒸
2928 large hill阜:     2189 wharf 埠
2981 dragon (old) 龍:     2025 attack 襲
3001 go smoothly 亨:     2549 stew 烹

The next table is in Key Word order. Also available as a spreadsheet.

148    lake    湖    2470    uncivilized    胡
356    range    域    2091    a    或
410    canopy    幌    2446    limpid    晃
563    feminine    雌    2043    this here    此
614    beguile    惑    2091    a    或
672    touch    接    2622    concubine    妾
733    pick    採    2090    grab    采
734    vegetable    菜    2090    grab    采
749    window    窓    1316    hole    穴
766    tempt    唆    2059    streetwalker (right hand side of)    悛
817    wink    瞬    2915    rose of Sharon    舜
923    cosmetics    粧    2238    shire    庄
941    muscle    筋    2463    rib    肋
950    fabricate    築    2637    ancient harp    筑
997    protect    保    2181    dumbfounded    呆
1011    lean    傾    2791    about that time    頃
1014    sagacious    俊    2059    streetwalker (right hand side of)    悛
1024    squat/sit    座    2238    shire    庄*
1056    fence    塀    2223    folding screen    屏
1134    temporarily    暫    2092    chop off    斬
1135    steadily    漸    2092    chop off    斬
1311    neighboring    隣    2051    shoeshine (right hand side of)    憐
1324    squeeze    搾    2614    tight    窄
1375    purple    紫    2043    this here    此
1421    willow    柳    2041    sign of the hare    卯
1422    egg    卵    2041    sign of the hare    卯*
1437    acid    酸    2059    streetwalker (right hand side of)    悛
1438    furthermore/ waver    猶    2906    chieftain    酋
1439    revered    尊    2906    chieftain    酋
1456    fierce    猛    2872    start    孟
1492    detach    離    2048    sheik (right hand side of)    璃
1563    sew    縫    2417    tryst    逢
1714    coloring    彩    2090    grab    采
1786    universal    普    2436    progress    晋
1804    elect    選    2861    southeast    巽
1830    marriage    婚    2451    dusk    昏
1900    steam    蒸    2919    helping hand    丞
1960    model    塑    2846    first day of the month    朔
1969    concerning    就    2087    understandably    尤
2003    bear    熊    2004    ability    能
2025    attack    襲    2981    dragon (old)    龍
2026    menacing / upbraid    嚇    2908    incandescent    赫
2037    healing    癒    2433    in the nick of time    愈
2039    lagoon    潟    2063    mortar    臼
2189    wharf    埠    2928    large hill    阜
2277    infatuation    惚    2431    instantaneously    忽
2334    grandpa    爺    2680    exclamation    耶
2336    indecent    猥    2569    apprehensive    畏
2353    trim    薙    2584    pheasant    雉
2425    courtesy    鄭    2906    chieftain    酋
2475    hazel    榛    2877    Manchu dynasty    秦
2493    Japanese oak    楢    2906    chieftain    酋
2524    coconut tree    椰    2680    exclamation    耶
2549    stew    烹    3001    go smoothly    亨
2681    flea    蚤    2914    forked    叉

Edit: * = Primitive is modified

Last edited by Katsuo (2009 May 04, 10:30 am)

Ah, much thanks. "This here feminine person likes turkey" works better for me than the other story I had.

Guess it's time to start revising a bunch of my stories-- this is going to help a lot. Many of these characters had stories I just couldn't always get.

Perhapse Katsuo's list should have its own thread? (I almost didnt ever bother to read this thread, excepct that I saw it kept remaining at the top). I am sure other members would be interested in this list. 
In Hindsight, I for one, would have like to have some of this knowledge from RTK3 while doing RTK1! (it is still usefull now-Thanks

When i saw 寡 Widow, I recognised the lower radical as 分 Part

781 part 分:    617 Widow 寡

There are many instances where strokes are shared between two primitives. I think it would be ok to combine part with head/page.

For "window" I just think of a house, two legs jumping first through the window, then an elbow, then a heart. Just imagine a person jumping through the window and his body parts hit in that order. ... Works for me =p.

bodhisamaya wrote:

2038丹cinnabar                1868 舟boat
2236庇overhang               1999鹿 deer
2879隼peregrine falcon      564 準 semi-
3001亨go smoothly           308  享 receive

These ones do not seem quite "kosher" as far as primitives, but I haven't actually used RTK so I may be wrong.  Other thoughts?

EDIT: What I mean is that for instance, 準 is not 隼 + the water primitive, it's the water primitive plus 隹 on top of 十.  It seems to me that trying to break it down and learn 準 as having 隼 in it, you could end up miswriting the character.

More:

2238 shire 庄:    923 cosmetics 粧, 1024 squat/sit 座

923 is fine, but for 1024 it seems like it might mess up the stroke order if you think of it as 庄 plus two people.  Doesn't Heisig usually separate characters so that you finish writing one primitive completely before starting the next one?

2914 forked 叉:     2681 flea 蚤

The top part of 2681 has an extra stroke compared to 2914.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2012 June 03, 3:39 am)

There are cases in RTK where primitives are drawn while other primitives are unfinished.  This is true for most of the characters that use primitives in the arrow/march family (式 戎 蔵 滅).

There are also places where not only is another primitive written mid-primitive, but where an added primitive distorts another one (黙; and interpreting it as 黒 + 犬 is even etymologically correct).

So I don't think any of the examples Yudan pointed out are non-kosher by RTK's standards.


Returning to the original topic (which I realize is very old), not only is interpreting 窓 as 穴+ム+心 valid, 穴 is in fact 窓's main radical, so I'd say it's even counterproductive to not interpret it that way.

Last edited by JimmySeal (2012 June 03, 10:14 am)