I think it's a horrible idea to try to jump right into native materials, but some people have managed to do it. I was never really that into Japanese pop culture, though, and maybe if I was I could imagine spending hours understanding just a couple of pages of a manga.  Even if you can bring yourself to do that, though, I imagine that a more structured approach is quicker in the long run.

Anyway, I would recommend you somehow study grammar (I would recommend a textbook like Genki, but there's also free stuff like Tae Kim's guide) and vocabulary (maybe Core 2000 in Anki after doing a bit of Genki?).  That would be a good start.  And as you do those, also get some listening practice by wathing movies/anime/drama/anything.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2013 June 09, 9:12 pm)

Splatted wrote:

Find material that has has a translation available and read them together. There are books aimed at learners that also provide explanations and a glossary, but you might find interesting content makes it worth tackling something harder. Don't worry about understanding everything; just focus on the simple stuff and understanding the general point of what you're reading.

You'll also need to study some basic grammar.

I find it hard to actually find material tbh. I've liked Dragon Ball since I was a kid so I tried to find some manga but had no luck. Can you link to some examples so I see what you mean?

I tried Tae Kim a bit but it was pretty hard remembering even the basic grammar. I also play Japanese dramas/shows in the background when I surf the web so I get some listening practice as little as it is.

learningkanji wrote:

I tried Tae Kim a bit but it was pretty hard remembering even the basic grammar. I also play Japanese dramas/shows in the background when I surf the web so I get some listening practice as little as it is.

That's why I recommended a textbook over Tae Kim.  A textbook usually gives you some materials to work with the grammar that you learned.  They also usually have a much easier learning curve than Tae Kim. 

If you do something like Core 2000 you will see the grammar you learned over and over again in those example sentences, so it can be helpful with grammar as well as vocabulary.

Also, playing Japanese dramas or shows in the background won't help.  If you are watching a show and paying attention you will probably start picking up small things.  But playing something like that in the background doesn't do anything, as far as I can tell.  Music might actually be better, because once you get into songs you will hear them over and over again and can look up the lyrics once you're interested enough in a song.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2013 June 09, 10:19 pm)

learningkanji wrote:

Splatted wrote:

Find material that has has a translation available and read them together. There are books aimed at learners that also provide explanations and a glossary, but you might find interesting content makes it worth tackling something harder. Don't worry about understanding everything; just focus on the simple stuff and understanding the general point of what you're reading.

You'll also need to study some basic grammar.

I find it hard to actually find material tbh. I've liked Dragon Ball since I was a kid so I tried to find some manga but had no luck. Can you link to some examples so I see what you mean?

You can get a few manga with English and Japanese. I believe they are intended for Japanese kids learning English, but they do the job. For example, I have this copy of Doraemon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doraemon-Gadget … 4092270119

The easest and most learner-friendly introduction to Japanese grammar:
Hugo Japanese in Three Months PLUS
Visualizing Japanese Grammar
Essential Japanese Verbs

You can read about them here:
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=7082&p=1

You can download them here as well:
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/
!GrVJGr
J 00 Hugo Japanese In Three Months
!EssentialJVerbs

learningkanji wrote:

I would often see people say that after you finish RTK1 you can dive into manga, movies, shows etc and learn by reading/watching fun things that interest you.

I've never seen people claim this with any level of detail that would actually let a novice person use the technique. 

This is a common path I've seen people take who make these recommendations:
1. They start with classes or traditional textbooks.
2. After a few years, they don't feel like they've made progress because they still can't handle native materials.
3. They start studying native materials; it's tough at first but eventually they are able to do it.
4. They wish they could have skipped steps 1 and 2 because they were boring and they don't feel like they learned anything.  They start recommending that beginners start with step 3.

The problem is that they're totally ignoring the grammar and vocabulary base they got from steps 1 and 2 that were essential in letting them do step 3.

This is the problem with the Antimoon site that's often linked to here -- the site is really advice for what to do if you've studied a language in school but want to translate that ability into actually being able to work with materials in that foreign language or speak the language.  The writers of the site are not clear about this (probably because of what I said above), and people are misled by the site into thinking the correct way to learn a language is to completely avoid textbooks and classes and work with only native materials from day 1.

I agree with yudantaiteki in post 13 above. This was exactly my experience with Chinese. I studied my ass off at a language center here in Taiwan for 15 months, and got to a very "high level," before I did much at all with native material. But now I'm consuming as much as I can. The mistake I made was waiting too long, though. Things like Disney movies would have been doable much earlier. Aside from a volume of Ranma 1/2 and 2 volumes of Deathnote, the first book I ever completed was an academic book on early Chinese palaeography.

So anyway, do a good textbook or two. I guess Genki is the usual recommendation, or Minna no nihongo. I personally haven't used either, because I like the Assimil books. But I got a Japanese friend to re-record the audio at a natural pace...seriously, the original is awful. Anyway, the important thing is to do something to get a good base established.

But you can work in native material well before you're ready to read books intended for graduate students (learn from my mistakes). In fact, I'd think something like My Neighbor Totoro (となりのトトロ) would be doable after a few months of study, if you like Miyazaki's movies. I'll be testing that theory this week, actually.

Depending on what the textbooks are like for the upper levels of Japanese (I haven't looked into it yet), you may want to keep going with them, while still getting a good dose of native content. There are some really good textbooks in Taiwan at the higher levels (much better than the ones used for beginners and intermediates, IMO) that I recommend for every student of Chinese, but man, do I wish I had loaded up on Chinese movies earlier.

yudantaiteki wrote:

They wish they could have skipped steps 1 and 2 because they were boring and they don't feel like they learned anything.  They start recommending that beginners start with step 3.

The problem is that they're totally ignoring the grammar and vocabulary base they got from steps 1 and 2 that were essential in letting them do step 3.

That's one of the more sensible things I've read in a long time.  People often downplay the fundamental learning that they got early on.  I think we have a tendency to forget how hard it was at first.

Based on the posts I've read on this board and elsewhere, some people tend to think that the fundamental form of the language they (intend to) learn is the written form. So, after having a look at a Japanese text, they come (jump) to the conclusion that if they 'conquer' enough kanji, they'll be able to master everything else in a jiffy.
The OP seems to be a classical example/victim of such an approach. Mr Heisig himself is to blame probably. Why on earth should you start by learning the written forms of two thousand kanji using contrived mnemonics in your L1 is a mystery I'm not in a position  to fathom.

Language is a system (= a set of interdependent elements/sub-systems): sounds (phonemes, tones, pitch accent, stress, rhythm, intonation), words (combinations of sounds that carry meaning), phrases and sentences (combinations of words), and texts (spoken and written, combinations of all the above) and four skills (listening, speaking, reading, and writing). Only TEXTS carry personally relevant real life meanings and EMOTIONS.

By the way, if something language related seems difficult, it simply means that the approach is wrong.

uisukii wrote:

One of the key problems is that telling people what they don't want to hear isn't a very easy way of achieving fellowship. On the internet, at least, you are nothing without your fanbase. This could explain why people flock to sites which tell people they can gain fluency in [target language] just by following their simply "secret techniques".

The online language learning community is in this respect similar to the online fitness and bodybuilding community.

To complete the comparison:
You're not going to magically get fit because of some special technique, you're going to get it through a balanced diet exercise plan. And just like working out, when learning a language, not only do you need to have your balanced intake of vocab and grammar, you need to tailor them to whatever your language goal is. Do you want to be faster (at reading)? Then you should first work on your (mental) endurance before increasing your (reading) speed gradually over time. In both cases, you could try doing the increased speed in increments.

The same logic can be applied to all things that involve developing a skill.

I think understanding what ultimately it is in a textbook that is useful is the key to fruitful learning at the beginner stages. If I think back to the times I've used learner materials, actual learning has occurred when I made repeated contact with vocabulary and patterns that are comprehensible with the help of provided translations/glossaries. Diving into native content is difficult when the sheer volume of new information is huge and when there is no easily accessible translation. This is the key I think. You need quick easy access to definitions and translations, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a textbook. It also helps to have some common sense regarding which materials you use at first. Manga is often full of (totally opaque to the beginner) slangy conjugations. Historical texts will be full of uncommon kanji readings etc. Something like online newspaper articles are good, because the language is simple, news often covers the same topics again and again, you may be familiar with the stories in English, you can use pop-up dictionaries etc.

Last edited by nadiatims (2013 June 11, 9:23 am)

learningkanji wrote:

Even simple children books.

One thing to keep in mind is that children's books are only "simple" for Japanese children.  But those Japanese children, when they're reading or listening to the books, have already lived in Japan with Japanese as their native language for at least 4 years, probably more.  A Japanese child very quickly masters the standard spoken grammar of the language and they have a pretty large vocabulary.

Grammar tends to be the major sticking point for beginners trying to jump into native materials; vocabulary can be looked up, but grammar patterns usually can't be.　 Vocabulary can be a problem either because it's boring and tedious to have to look up almost every word in a sentence, or because if you have no idea what the sentence is saying you may not be able to tell which meaning of a particular word applies to that sentence.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2013 June 11, 9:53 am)