For characters in isolation, production gives better results. Having the character on the back means that what you're practicing is producing the character in your head, and if you can do that you can most certainly recognize it when you see it as well.

But it's different for vocabulary because there are usually several ways to translate a certain word. If you've only got the English word on the front, you won't necessarily know which Japanese word it translates to. When you get further along and pile up tons of cards you won't remember all of them individually like you do in the beginning. So it's not just practicing the particular Japanese word, it's also in a way practicing a particular way to translate this English word into Japanese, which is more than necessary (and maybe even hurtful?).

So if you want to do Japanese vocab production it's probably better to have a Japanese sentence cloze deletion, MCD, or something else that makes it apparent on the front side exactly what word it is you're studying.

Now for the actual question... I just do Japanese word in kanji → reading and meaning. I like the simplicity for adding new vocabulary fast. There's an ocean of words to know--going for quantity instead of careful time spent on quality, and then leaving the rest to other studies (listening and reading for me) seems to be effective.

I wouldn't do both recognition and production on the same content. Seems unnecessary, and you're also sort of going against the SRS algorithm by reviewing the same knowledge on different cards with their own separate intervals.

Last edited by TwoMoreCharacters (2013 May 03, 6:40 pm)

That's a great question, and I'm sure there are a variety of opinions on it.  I'll give you a snapshot of my experience.

I used Anki daily for about three years doing both directions, until about 8 months ago, when I switched to doing Japanese--English (sort of) only.  I think this is the way to go, at least for me, and I'll tell you why.

Before that, let me say that when I say "English (sort of)," I mean that I've got a sentence in Japanese with a vocab word in bold that I'm trying to learn.  That's the front of the card.  On the back is the same sentence with Furigana written above it, and far below, in rather small letters, an English translation.  I probably look at the English less than 1% of the time, but doing an initial translation helps ensure I really I understand the sentence, I feel.  And of course, yeah, there's a lot of things that don't translate exactly, but I don't get hung up on that.

As for why this is a good method, well, it's much faster, so you can cover more material.  Doing English-->Japanese, it's pretty hard to remember the Japanese equivalent to every English expression you want to say.  So your failure rate is likely to be higher, and your reviews will probably take longer.  On the plus side, most everything you remember, you'll be able to use.  So, if you review 100 cards and fully remember 90, that's 90 you've got solid that you can use for output.

But . . . to me, the new best way of studying is to do Japanese-->English (sort of), and review more cards.  In the same time, I might be able to do 200 cards, usually with a lower failure rate, including new and young cards.  I just can't output them all.  So if I study 200, I can read 180, and probably output 90.  So the output percentage is the same, but I'm gaining exposure to an additional 90 cards per day.  The weird thing is that I don't choose which I'll be able to use for output.  My brain does.  In other words, some cards I'm able to remember both directions, while others I can only remember one direction. 

I'm writing this rather quickly, since I'm on vacation during Golden Week, but hopefully that makes some sense.  Maybe?

JapaneseRuleOf7 wrote:

On the back is the same sentence with Furigana written above it, and far below, in rather small letters, an English translation.  I probably look at the English less than 1% of the time, but doing an initial translation helps ensure I really I understand the sentence, I feel.  And of course, yeah, there's a lot of things that don't translate exactly, but I don't get hung up on that.

That's an excellent idea!  I think I'll do that myself once I get a few more vocabulary and kanjis under my belt.  I totally agree with your reasoning that you're probably learning extra material in the same amount of time.  Also, I can see myself being less hung up on getting the exact translation J→E rather than E→J like you said.

PotbellyPig wrote:

...am about 450 words away from finishing it (finally! :>)

That's fantastic!  Congratulations.

Are your cards currently J->E? If so, and all you want to do is reverse direction from J->E to E->J open your deck in the browser and click on "Cards" then copy the code from front to back and vice versa.  Keep the bit on the bottom, where it says something like {{answer}} and <hr id=*****>.  That should be close but I'm sorry if it's not exactly like this as I'm on my work computer now.

I have to say caution you that switching direction has been a bit of a speed-bump in my learning.  A significant amount of words I know E-J do not know know J-E.  So if you are hoping to make the best use of a short period of time, I suggest sticking with what you are doing.

Super EDIT for space:

Where applicable, both is definitely best in terms of speed and retention.  Doing E->J successfully is tricky though.  You need to make sure there is enough context on both sides of the card to lead to the word you're looking for.  Honestly this is much easier in monolingual study, as dictionary definitions are fairly descriptive.  In bilingual study you have to rely on example sentences from trusted sources.

Here's my recommendation using the word list method.

1.  Pick out 5-7 words at a time, no more no less.

2.  On the J side, kana/kanji + example sentence

3.  On E side, translation of word + english translation of example sentence

4.  If it helps, underline the specific word in both sentences.

5.  Run through the 5-7 words in anki J-> E

6.  Run through the 5-7 words in anki E -> J

7.  Repeat with another set of words as desired.

This is how I do it anyways.  Its great for retention, as the production reinforces the reading you just did.  If you don't have access to reliable sentences avoid E > J altogether.  Context is so necessary for E > J to work.  Definitely do both for kanji though.

Last edited by amtrack (2013 May 14, 4:08 pm)

Inny Jan wrote:

amtrack wrote:

1.  Pick out 5-7 words at a time, no more no less.

)

Just chiming in here.  I also find 5-7 a good number of cards to start with exactly because they are handled quite well by short term memory. 

Once I get 5-7 into short term memory, I learn the next 5-7 cards, etc...  and then review everything.  I have a filtered review deck for this which searches every card rated hard in the past 2 days(rated:2:1).  This review deck is usually around 50-60 cards which  try to review a few times throughout the day. During the review is when words go into long term memory.

I've tried 20 new cards at once and I just kept cycling through them and most wouldn't stick in my memory, short term or long.  This is just my experience, so maybe people just learn differently.

Inny Jan wrote:

amtrack wrote:

1.  Pick out 5-7 words at a time, no more no less.

For exercising your long term memory 5-7 items is not a good number. They are handled quite well by your short term memory. To make sure that you are committing newly learned items to the LTM you need at least twice as many. (BTW, I seem to remember - sorry, I can't be bothered to look it up now - that Anki's creator suggests 20 items at a time.)

I simply do 5-7 blocks at a time until I reach 20+ for the day.  In anki those cards will be reviewed in total the very next day (so 20+ at a time), thus meeting the long-term memory requirement.

Long story short, day 1 gets several groups of words into my short-term memory.  Day 2 will give me all the words I studied on day 1 at once, thus working words into my long-term memory.  The only reason I do it this way is because I cannot process 20 words at once the first day I study them.

EDIT:  And in fact I can study much more than 20 words for the day and successfully blast through them all in review the very next day.  I normally don't because, quite frankly, I get too bored.

Last edited by amtrack (2013 May 14, 9:56 pm)

uisukii wrote:

A quick side question in relation to this: has anybody gone down a route primarily involving image based recognition as opposed to primarily word/kana/kanji prompts? For example, having an *image of a dog, or a type of tree, etc. on the front, with the Japanese term for it on the back?


*purely for concrete objects, etc. which have a general 1:1 correlation between the image and the word.

Try: http://www.towerofbabelfish.com/

Oniichan wrote:

uisukii wrote:

A quick side question in relation to this: has anybody gone down a route primarily involving image based recognition as opposed to primarily word/kana/kanji prompts? For example, having an *image of a dog, or a type of tree, etc. on the front, with the Japanese term for it on the back?


*purely for concrete objects, etc. which have a general 1:1 correlation between the image and the word.

Try: http://www.towerofbabelfish.com/

I have done this a few times in the past because the study materials I was using included them.  This may be different for different people, but I found them distracting.  I know other people have different methods that suit them, but I try to keep my cards simple without any extraneous information on them.  My cards have only a Japanese word on the front, English on the back or vice versa. 

I have however started adding Kanji to my kana vocabulary on the front.  This way, if I happen to glance at the kanji, even if I don't know it, I'm becoming more familiar with it and more likely to recognize it next time I see it.  Also, if I happen to know the meaning of the kanji, it gives me a hint as to what the kana means.

^Oh, it isn't something I'm doing myself. The question was put out there purely out of interest to see if anyone had any anecdotes about personal experiences with a similar methodology. Interested after reading various academic/scientific papers on changing trends in vocabulary "teaching" in class settings. Personally, my internet connection isn't reliable enough to source enough images at the rate I'm interested in studying. Core10k is good enough; I've divided it up into thematic groups and semantic groupings for the verbals/adjectival terms/phrases. 

I didn't think the initial question would garner such response. For the sake of the original post question, I hope you aren't offended if further discussion on this topic is left without response. It would probably suitably discussed further in a thread of its own.