tae kim (it's freE)

and learn from song lyrics with rikaichan.

Last edited by howtwosavealif3 (2013 April 24, 5:43 pm)

Ah, yes, I've heard of Tae Kim's grammar guide, but how do I go about using it? Is it beginner friendly? How do I incorporate it into Anki for review purposes? How regimented is it's lesson structure, if it has any? Should I shut up, download it and just begin?
Thanks for the responses so far, guys.

Got it, ryanjmack. I'll check that link out and see what I can make use of.

On a side note, does anyone else who has knowledge of or experience with Rosetta Stone Japanese know of some tips or pointers on how to utilize it most effectively (Anki flashcards, other review techniques, etc.)? Thanks.

egoplant wrote:

eagles980 wrote:

Got it, ryanjmack. I'll check that link out and see what I can make use of.

On a side note, does anyone else who has knowledge of or experience with Rosetta Stone Japanese know of some tips or pointers on how to utilize it most effectively (Anki flashcards, other review techniques, etc.)? Thanks.

The most effective method is to not use it at all as it's pretty horrible.

totally agree. time is money. time spent on rosetta stone could be used on something that's a billion times more effective. so the uselessness of rosetta stone is exponential if you compare it to better methods which everyone linked to and mentioned.

I've not used the Japanese Rosetta Stone, but I think it's probably a good thing to do while you're going through RTK.  Something that is very listening/speaking based will build a good foundation, I think.

My advice...

1. Stop using Rosetta Stone. It's basically worthless for learning Japanese.
2. Get yourself some basic hiragana and katakana workbooks. Something like Kodansha's Hiragana/Katakana Workbooks would work fine. Spend a few weeks working through them.
3. Buy a basic Japanese textbook. I recommend the Genki series but there are others out there like Japanese for Busy People, Minna no Nihongo, or Japanese the Manga Way. Whichever book you pick make sure to pick up the audio cds and workbooks.
4. Plow through your textbook while doing RTK on the side.

Pretty simple but effective.

PS. Anki is a neat tool for flashcards and memory retention.
http://ankisrs.net/

Last edited by kitakitsune (2013 April 25, 3:23 am)

I really think it would be smart to concentrate fully on RTK before doing any other studies (except for learning hiragana and katakana), for me at least it has been a tremendous help.

What I personally have been doing since completing RTK1 is to do Tae Kim's guide with the anki deck, and Core6k for vocabulary. It have worked out pretty good so far and I'm making fast and noticeable progress, so I guess that's what I would recommend (though I haven't really explored other methods that much).

I think Tae Kim's guide is really good, most of the time he explains well and has good examples on each grammar point. The anki deck with 700 sentences is also really useful in combination with the guide to remember what you've read. I've also tried Genki but I like Tae Kim's guide more, I think he explains things from a more natural and logical point of view. But I guess you could try both and see what you prefer.

Holy heck, Batman, that's a lot of stuff I need to work on! Thanks for the input so far, people.

Egoplant, I feel that getting myself familiar with the Kana most before completely immersing myself in the Kanji (I've pretty much been doing a lesson a day in RTK and splitting up those that include more than 25 for the next day) will serve me better in the long run seeing as it's the base of the language. Isn't that pretty standard? I say learning to crawl before I run is the best option right now.

kitakitsune, I already have Remember the Kana and I'm mostly working through that and reviewing what I've learned with a basic pronunciation to Kana deck I've managed to create. I've used some of the premade ones found on the Anki website, but I can't figure out how to use them properly seeing as this little blue box keeps popping up where the stroke order (?) is supposed to appear. I've installed the font and everything but nothing seems to work there. As for your advice on getting a textbook, would Tae Kim's Grammar count? I'm kinda low on funds and don't really want to spend money on textbooks (I've spent way too much in that department this semester, heh).

Animosoph, those look like pretty good goals to work towards. I'll check out some of those resources and see what I can do. Might I ask how far you've gotten since you began and how your study schedule is like on a typical day?

AlgoRhythmic, I don't really want to put all of my focus on RTK right now because I want to get the basics of grammar and vocabulary down at the same time. I think that kind of path offers at least a little bit in variety and will give me the least opportunity for burnout seeing as I'm not really a 'sit down, it's study time' kind of guy. I'd like to do Tae Kim and core2k/6k but would like some pointers on which methods would be best for getting through them.
How do you get your listening / speaking practice in BTW?

Betelgeuzah, thanks for the input. When do you think I'll be ready to pull vocabulary from sources I'm most interested in exploring? After RTK 1 and 2? Some time before? Right now? I'm a complete novice when it comes to Kanji and vocab as I said, and would love some tips in that department.
Also, Do you know of any grammar resources that explains the things Tae Kim didn't go into detail about?

eagles980 wrote:

kitakitsune, I already have Remember the Kana and I'm mostly working through that and reviewing what I've learned with a basic pronunciation to Kana deck I've managed to create. I've used some of the premade ones found on the Anki website, but I can't figure out how to use them properly seeing as this little blue box keeps popping up where the stroke order (?) is supposed to appear. I've installed the font and everything but nothing seems to work there. As for your advice on getting a textbook, would Tae Kim's Grammar count? I'm kinda low on funds and don't really want to spend money on textbooks (I've spent way too much in that department this semester, heh).

Tae Kim's guide is a pretty decent grammar supplement but that's it. The textbooks I recommended are better resources for you because they give you a more comprehensive foundation in Japanese compared to core and Tae Kim.

I strongly suggest saving money or procuring a textbook through more cheaper means (wink wink)

eagles980 wrote:

Ouch! I didn't think it was THAT bad. I think it has some pretty effective ways of giving you some basic concepts to start with and builds upon that with a gradual introduction of newer concepts as you go along. I for one am using it as a convenient method to practice reading and learning some basic vocab exclusively in Hiragana, with quick references to the romaji if Katakana is used, since I haven't learned it yet. 

Could you guys elaborate on why you think it's such a bad method to use and why the others mentioned here are better?

The only way to convince you is to offer you better alternatives.

There are two ways to study Japanese: from sources that are didactic, and from sources that aren't (manga, anime, movies, books, songs, radio, including used with SRS or other learning techniques like passive listening, various reading methods, etc.).

I think didactic sources are OK, but boring. I think they're all boring, but to varying degrees. Here's one that's less boring than Rosetta Stone: https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/

Aside from being boring, Rosetta Stone is also ineffective. It hasn't even been designed to teach Japanese, it just uses the same format and content in every language. It's ridiculous to think that could work. Something like Human Japanese (also a piece of software), then Tae Kim and the Anki deck (or a Grammar textbook like that manga one - I forget the exact title- if you're not interested in using Anki), combined with the site I linked to above, would be far more effective, as far as didactic sources go.

I won't go more into the non-didactic side of learning Japanese, because this site is loaded with suggestions already.

kitakitsune wrote:

Tae Kim's guide is a pretty decent grammar supplement but that's it. The textbooks I recommended are better resources for you because they give you a more comprehensive foundation in Japanese compared to core and Tae Kim.

I strongly suggest saving money or procuring a textbook through more cheaper means (wink wink)

Ah, the good old textbook method. Although I'm not the biggest fan of them, I'd much rather deal with the dry, structured lesson format of a textbook than something like a dry UNstructured list of vocabulary to memorize like core2k/6k, although I'm not above doing that if necessary. What I'm really looking for is something like an effective language learning program or some form of interactive media, seeing as Rosetta Stone is apparently garbage if the comments here are any indication, heh.

Hyperborea wrote:

Easiest way to start is to get one of the audio based courses and work it while you do kana, RTK, and into Core2K. There are a bunch of these (Assimil, Michel Thomas, Linguaphone, etc) with most of them being similar in goals and results though they have differences in approach and some like one more than the others.

I'll check some of those courses out and see if it's something I can get into. I already listen to podcasts during half of my free time, especially when it comes to commuting, and would love to take advantage of that. Thanks for the input!

Aspiring wrote:

kana, kanji, words, collocations, sentences.
and authentic context.
^the most important factors
try to get used all these factors of the language using whatever tools you feel are efficient.
the best source is media, but other options (that ive used) include tae kim, japanese the manga way, and core.

I'll keep all of that in mind. Thanks.

Stansfield123 wrote:

I think didactic sources are OK, but boring. I think they're all boring, but to varying degrees. Here's one that's less boring than Rosetta Stone: https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/

Aside from being boring, Rosetta Stone is also ineffective. It hasn't even been designed to teach Japanese, it just uses the same format and content in every language. It's ridiculous to think that could work. Something like Human Japanese (also a piece of software), then Tae Kim and the Anki deck (or a Grammar textbook like that manga one - I forget the exact title- if you're not interested in using Anki), combined with the site I linked to above, would be far more effective, as far as didactic sources go.

I don't really mind didactic sources of learning and actually prefer them seeing as attempting to break down and internalize my favorite anime and manga SEEMS like a chore and would hamper the "fun" aspect of watching and reading them respectively. Now that I think about it, though, what better method could there be to learning a language I'm interested in than analyzing and learning directly from the shows I already watch all the time? I'll do a bit of research and try to figure things out there. Maybe a combination of all of the above would be best?
I'll check out all the resources you cited regarding didactic learning methods and will see which ones work for me. Thanks for the response!

Last edited by eagles980 (2013 April 25, 8:27 pm)

I agree with AlgoRhythmic and Betel and I'm adjusting my approach accordingly to start listening and reading and shadowing native material during Core. I think Algo is right in recommending RTK be done in isolation. There is no other way to go through it so quickly while acquiring a strong enough retention rate to make kanji recognition easy. Memorising ~3000 associated keyword(s)-kanji in about 3 months is certainly worth the time investment. eagles, I'm 2500 cards into the RTK deck I recommended. I'm only just staring to see some kanji that have no common words listed to them on jisho.org and/or are used only in names. I've been suspending those cards but I might just stop here and begin the core deck today. I'm also adding to my milestones to speak as much Japanese words/phrases/sentences as I can, even if it's just broken Japanese.