egoplant
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2012-07-08
Posts: 161
I've been using Japanese subtitles and they seem to help a decent amount with comprehension, and the way I see it, it is also somewhat like reading practise too, however I'm wondering if using them will hurt me in the future. Will they become a dependance? Will it be a hard transition or a smooth one into not using subtitles anymore? If anyone has any experience with this, please share.
sholum
Member
Registered: 2011-09-19
Posts: 265
If you are using Japanese subtitles, I don't think it'd be bad. It's good reading practice and it probably helps you learn to train your ears too (if it's Japanese audio, like I assume). Just try not to look at them all the time so that you don't block out the audio. That's the only thing I can think of that would make it bad. It's the same thing that happens with other subtitles; you rely on the audio only for emphasis and tone and ignore the words themselves.
If you can avoid using them all the time, it should be fine. If you're one of those people that can watch things over and over, only watch it with subs the first time. Or maybe just use them when you didn't quite catch something.
Last edited by sholum (2013 April 23, 10:12 pm)
dtcamero
Member
From: new york
Registered: 2010-05-15
Posts: 653
talk of crutches is kind of a sexy thing to worry about in the language study community... sounds interesting, etc.
the most famous crutch is english subtitles, which probably are actually dangerous and will take you out of the language experience altogether.
but the two lesser crutches of furigana and L2 subs seem to me to be overemphasized. when you start reading things without furigana it is harder,yes, but not in a debilitating way. if you read things without phonetics after a while you get used to it...
i think it's kind of like when you finish rtk and have been going keyword->character for so long that actually reading things is quite tough trying to do the reverse. but you do it and after a little while are able to adjust.
tldr:I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. keep plugging away and you'll be fine.
Last edited by dtcamero (2013 April 23, 10:13 pm)
SomeCallMeChris
Member
From: Massachusetts USA
Registered: 2011-08-01
Posts: 787
Furigana -can- ... sort of ... be a problem because you can read the kana without really registering what the kanji are under it, especially when they are kanji you aren't already familiar with, but, even so. It's better to read smoothly with furigana than to spend more time looking up readings than actually reading.
In any case, it doesn't really create a 'dependence'. You're still reading Japanese. It's just that if you're reading with furigana, you shouldn't expect your -kanji- recognition/reading skills are growing. That won't stop you from improving them later, but if you think you're reading the kanji when you're just reading the kana you may be surprised later to find that your kanji reading skills need improving.
With Japanese subtitles... I think it's beneficial in every way. You can't really 'gloss over' voices pouring into your ear that match what you're reading. Heck, there are whole learning communities around reading along with what you're hearing. While LR learning techniques can be quite a bit more complicated than 'just read along', ultimately you'll learn a lot of both reading and listening from just reading along.
Hey Egoplant,
A summary of my experiences and other comments in the past:
Truly "transcribing" or figuring out how to hear something you don't recognize is hard, especially at the start. That is, listening with no subs, repetitively, hoping you'll "figure it out" is probably the most challenging method.
Japanese subs can immediately and easily tell you exactly what's being said and what's going on. So if actors are mumbling something, using a weird idiom, or just speaking quickly you can sort of "tune" your listening.
In my case I notice that if I watch with subs my comprehension is really good (I'm good at reading), and I feel like I'm listening. But if I turn subs off my comprehension drops pretty rapidly. This tells me the obvious conclusion: My listening is nowhere near as good as I might think it is.
Repetitive listening is important, imho (i.e. a long stream of immersive audio that doesn't repeat will only be so useful...). So if you've got the time and are pushing through listening comp I suggest the following:
1) listen/watch the media content while reading subs. Read the subs separately if you need to go slowly to comprehend the content. Look up the words, phrases, etc. Read the translation if you have to.
2) Watch again with no subs.
3) Rip the audio to mp3, listen to it on your music device or on your computer a few times (background OK).
Personally, I go with step 1, and then go straight to step 3 and I find that after a bit of prep and study I can listen to the audio alone and comprehend a lot. It's not ideal but it's one step between watching with subs and watching without.
Take home point: be aware of your comprehension. Don't be fooled into thinking your listening is good. Test yourself now and then with new material without subs, go back and forth. Keep at it, because in the end you're interfacing with the language one way or another so you'll only be making progress one way or another.
K.
CarolinaCG wrote:
yes, because you can neither focus on listening nor subtitles. getting a little overwhelmed while you do it.
that's cause you read slow. i'm not saying this to be mean i used to read slow so watching with j-subs was challenging (to the point i didn't even bother watching with the j-subs. i went through the script watching the episode after i finished watching the episode). but nowadays i've read so much japanese so i read fast my reading speed with j-subs is probably or almost on-par with my e-subs reading skills.
if you have no j-subs or have e-subs that might not be enough to figure out what they're saying or figuring out sounds you're hearing. you can watch something without subs and then try to figure out what htey say by re-winding it andwhatnot but it's so time-consuming and there's no guarantee you'll be able to catch what they say on the 11th try or that the english subs will be enough to help you figure out what they actually said in japanese. so in short if there are japanese subs, use them, you are saaving yourself a lot time and frustration.
Last edited by howtwosavealif3 (2013 April 24, 6:48 pm)
Stansfield123
Member
From: Europe
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 799
Are Japanese subtitles a handicap?
Nope. They can only help with your reading. They can't hurt your listening comprehension. There's no reason why they would. In fact they probably help with that too.
But I always hated same-language subtitles, because they take away from the experience (they pop up before something is said, and ruin the any dramatic moment, not to mention all comedy). So I would try and go without them as soon as possible, for that reason. I'd rather watch a movie where it's almost impossible to figure out what someone's saying (looking at you, Bane from Dark Knight Rises) without subs than with.
SomeCallMeChris
Member
From: Massachusetts USA
Registered: 2011-08-01
Posts: 787
Stansfield123 wrote:
Are Japanese subtitles a handicap?
Nope. They can only help with your reading. They can't hurt your listening comprehension. There's no reason why they would. In fact they probably help with that too.
TBH, I found that Japanese subtitles help tremendously with my listening comprehension and that's why I use them. I haven't noticed that they particularly help with reading, but they don't hurt it either and do encourage me to a habit of reading faster so that I don't have to pause or rewind.
In general, though there are cross-benefits in any case, I think if you want to improve reading speed, you should read books, if you want to improve listening comprehension, you should read along with audio (whether that's subbed shows or otherwise).
It's true the story flows better without -any- subtitles. Easier, slice-of-life, rom-com and so forth I don't run with subtitles (except on rewatch for comprehension and practice), but until you're at near-native levels (and I, for one, have a -long- way to go there) there's always shows with enough jargon, accent or dialect to make it worth turning the (japanese) subs on.
Crispy
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2012-05-08
Posts: 126
As long as you study other areas of Japanese, i.e. reading, writing and speaking with real people it won't make any difference. Kids use furigana because it helps them, Japanese people have subtitles thrust in their face throughout most TV shows and yet I don't notice any of them worrying about whether their language skills have suffered.
Just do your best to be well rounded and you'll be fine.
scooter1
Member
From: united states
Registered: 2010-10-03
Posts: 20
Interesting question. My experience follows.
Early on, I watched a lot of Japanese dramas-movies with English subtitles. I firmly believe that time was 100% wasted and can not be recovered. One might argue that some Japanese sounds were being absorbed subliminally. However, the absorption rate in my case was approaching zero.
Watching Japanese TV with Japanese subtitles after finishing Minna No Nihongo I & II seems to help a bit with listening, reading and Kanji recognition. But I would not over estimate the value of TV as a learning tool. There are other learning methods that are more efficient and effective in my view; that is important because we are all time constrained.
The problem with TV and movies is that they are passive activities, with few words per minute, and big images that don't force one to concentrate on the spoken word.
On the other hand, radio has no images, more words per minute and can use more sophisticated language. Reading can be even better.
One polyglot explained to me his learning strategy in simple, but indirect, terms:
***Think about what type of people are the best communicators in your native language? Those who watch TV? Those who listen to radio talk programs? Those who read challenging materials? Those who write prolifically?
You can use subtitles forever and if you try to turn them off entirely you may have comprehension problems, but that doesn't mean the subtitles were actually hurting your progress. It's "scaffolding", to use jargon from pedagogy.
As for English subs, I actually found that somewhat paradoxically, they helped more the better my Japanese got. When you're not very experienced you'll naturally ignore the Japanese and just process the English even if you try not to. But when you're good enough that you can understand (let's say) 80% of the dialogue without any subs, the English can help you fill in the gaps and hear what the Japanese text is. Japanese subs would do that too, but the English subs force you to really listen to hear what's being said (since you can't just read the Japanese words), and Japanese subs aren't always an option.
I think they're fine, and they've been a valuable part of my ear training. The only time I think they're a handicap is if you find yourself thinking, "Oh, I can't listen to that because I don't have subtitles." But that's true of any tool (Rikaisama, LingQ, iPhone, etc.). I view materials w/ subtitles or transcripts as "study" material, and make sure to balance out listening to transcripted material with listening to "raw" Japanese.
Stansfield123
Member
From: Europe
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 799
scooter1 wrote:
Interesting question. My experience follows.
Early on, I watched a lot of Japanese dramas-movies with English subtitles. I firmly believe that time was 100% wasted and can not be recovered. One might argue that some Japanese sounds were being absorbed subliminally. However, the absorption rate in my case was approaching zero.
Watching Japanese TV with Japanese subtitles after finishing Minna No Nihongo I & II seems to help a bit with listening, reading and Kanji recognition. But I would not over estimate the value of TV as a learning tool. There are other learning methods that are more efficient and effective in my view; that is important because we are all time constrained.
The problem with TV and movies is that they are passive activities, with few words per minute, and big images that don't force one to concentrate on the spoken word.
On the other hand, radio has no images, more words per minute and can use more sophisticated language. Reading can be even better.
One polyglot explained to me his learning strategy in simple, but indirect, terms:
***Think about what type of people are the best communicators in your native language? Those who watch TV? Those who listen to radio talk programs? Those who read challenging materials? Those who write prolifically?
yudantaiteki wrote:
You can use subtitles forever and if you try to turn them off entirely you may have comprehension problems, but that doesn't mean the subtitles were actually hurting your progress. It's "scaffolding", to use jargon from pedagogy.
As for English subs, I actually found that somewhat paradoxically, they helped more the better my Japanese got. When you're not very experienced you'll naturally ignore the Japanese and just process the English even if you try not to. But when you're good enough that you can understand (let's say) 80% of the dialogue without any subs, the English can help you fill in the gaps and hear what the Japanese text is. Japanese subs would do that too, but the English subs force you to really listen to hear what's being said (since you can't just read the Japanese words), and Japanese subs aren't always an option.
I couldn't agree more, with both of these posts. You both make perfect sense, not to mention confirm my experience with several languages.
Last edited by Stansfield123 (2013 April 26, 4:14 pm)
