I'm sorry if I sound stupid, but... what's the point of j-j dictionary?

When learning English I neither use nor have used in the past english-english dictionary (except for some cases, like slang or some more complex words) and I have no problems reading newspapers, watching movies without any subtitles or whatever.

Ofc my grammar sucks, but reading en-en vocabulary dictionary won't help with that. So back to my point, if you can simply look that word up in a normal dictionary, what's the point of bothering yourself with j-j? Just for reading practice? There are more interesting things to read than that. To get a better idea of that word? English dictionary won't show you 100% right definition, but it will be enough so you can figure out the real meaning in your head by reading a lot.

So... what's the point?

EDIT: seems like it was already discussed in this thread, I was just lazy to read it all. Anyway, what I read did not convince me.

Last edited by Fragas (2013 April 15, 1:20 pm)

Fragas, monolingual dictionaries tend to give out more information than normal ones, especially when it comes to nuance.
Have a random sample, according to jisho.org
調査- investigation; examination; inquiry; enquiry; survey
探究- search; research; enquiry; inquiry
(both are する verbs)
調べる - to examine; to investigate; to check up; to sense; to study; to inquire; to search
尋ねる  - to search; to look for; to look into; to investigate

Given their definitions, they might seem completely interchangeable, right? A monolingual dictionary would instead offer more information regarding the nuance. Of course, this can be achieved with a good Jp-En dictionary as well, but whether or not you can find one, its accessibility, etc are questionable. I've mentioned that when it comes to Romanian-English dictionaries, there is no good alternatives. So that can be one reason.
Also, given how Japanese-X dictionaries are not always readily available and/or of good quality, the native speaker of the language X would have to struggle to use an intermediary language in order to use a dictionary, so why not go monolingual while you're at it?

^^ indeed. The quality of the dictionary is also of great importance. However, I think jisho vs goo is a fit comparison since they're both free, and online. If you invoke denshi jishos then there's already a cost involved, and a minor disadvantage when it comes to mining ease.

I use the Genius J-E dictionary on my electronic dictionary, but if you want a J-E online dictionary there are two fairly good choices.

goo.ne.jp has a J-E dictionary with a lot of examples; you have to be able to read the kanji to use the dictionary, though.

alc.co.jp is good also; it's better for getting example sentences but it's not quite as good for figuring out a word in something you're reading.

jisho.org is OK for some cases when you've already got a context since you're finding the word in an actual native source you're reading, and you just need to see what it means and get back to reading.

Here's my 2 cents:

@Zgarbas I think your bias for mastery over fluency is showing up again! :-)

Really, for a beginner nailing down exact meanings from the beginning only makes sense if you're striving for mastery from the start.  If your goal is "just" fluency, then having only a vague idea what words mean is fine.  As you go along you will get a more and more refined understanding of how words are used.  This seems to me quite natural.

More generally, I think monolingual dicts can be turned into a fetish (not claiming Zgarbas or anyone here is doing that).  The best way to learn what words mean is to see them used in many real contexts.  If you want to get hint from a JE (or Mono) dictionary it is not going to hurt anything.  And the meanings of words aren't in any dictionary, they are in how people are actually using them.

But JE can also be a abused.  Beginners could be led astray if they think that bilingual dictionaries provide more than a hint at the meaning, and that there is a one-to-one mapping between words in different languages.  As a reminder to myself of this I call the English fields on my Anki cards, "English Approximation". :-)

I also think comparing a great dictionary like goo.ne.jp (is that 三省堂？ 大辞[林泉]？ I'm too lazy to check) with a poor quality one like edict is bit unfair.  They are both free, but one is very high quality and the other is really just a quick and dirty hack and useful only as a gloss.

All IMHO,

CJ

Last edited by cjon256 (2013 April 18, 5:40 pm)

I like Tangorin.  It's simple, interface is nice, and if you need a better explanation there are buttons to immediately search on alc, goo, and yahoo.

http://tangorin.com/

howtwosavealif3 wrote:

for plants and animals there's google images. it's fast and sometimes pictures are just more clearer than words. the dictionary or the wiki will tell you what genus it is and what it eats or where it lives and all that but the picture just shows you what it looks like and you go oh it's a land animal or a bird or a sea animal.　usually i come across a word that is an animal or a plant or whatever else that's more easily and quickly understood with google images, i can tell that it is from the context and the kanji they use or if they use katakana, etc etc. sometimes a picture is better than the monolingual and bilingual if you've never seen or heard of that plant/animal. it happens since japan is obsessed with plants in comparison to america (language-wise).

Nouns are almost always easy to learn and to use appropriately, and an English translation would nearly always suffice just fine. There are probably plenty of Japanese nouns that don't have a 1:1 mapping with English, but many do and its not difficult.

The difficulties come from more abstract words and meanings, which can almost definitely not be expressed by Google Images.

I don't even understand the difference between "mastery" and "fluency".

And as I've said before, I absolutely hate the debate "tactic" used here where people say something like "Oh your method is fine, unless you want to be *fluent*."  That just drips condescension.

Zgarbas wrote:

I request more information regarding this statement. What bias?

(I actually use jisho.org as my main dictionary and only turn to goo when there's something that confuses me or a nuance; luckily, most words are pretty straightforward)

You won't wiggle out of my stereotyping you that easily!  ;-)

Really I was just misreading what you were saying.  I withdraw the semi-humorous poke.

CJ