They're both basically the same, so you can safely go with either one. I did Minna no Nihongo and it was ok.

In case you haven't done so yet, you might want to check out Tae Kim's guide: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

I had gone through the first half of Genki 1 rather thoroughly and skimmed through the other half, but found it more fun to alternate between using the guide above and reading manga, occasionally checking back with the guide.

I've only taken glances at Minna no Nihongo, but it seems to introduce many phrases early on which are in fact made up by conjugations or other grammatical constructs that haven't been taught yet. Still, I've heard that Genki has some outdated constructs, so it's not that great either.

It will be fine either way, I haven't read Minna no Nihongo but I can recommend you Genki.

I did Genki 2 for study abroad, and the last few chapters of Minna no Nihongo as review when I moved back to Japan later.  I liked Minna no Nihongo better, but probably mostly because I found the presentation in Genki to be pretty childish.

(My main textbook was Japanese The Spoken Language, which I love, but I think is awful for self-study)

imabi wrote:

Although a work in progress, I do want to make known that my site is way better than Tae Kim as far as amount of content is concerned.

A bit of constructive criticism though: I don't think your site is very beginner friendly.  I imagine that Genki is very beginner friendly, Tae Kim less so, and your site less so.  The beginner section of your website almost seems like it would be a nice (more thorough) review of beginner concepts once you're at an intermediate level, rather than as an actual introduction to beginner grammar.

Your site is a very good resource though, and I commend you for your efforts.  I've certainly looked up stuff on your site.  And it's certainly true that you have far more content than Tae Kim.

When I was in college I used 'Yookoso! An Invitation to Contemporary Japanese' and the intermediate book in the series as well. I found the grammar explanations really great and thorough and the culture notes and linguistic notes were pretty informative too I thought. While some of the vocab lists and such may be targeted more towards current students (for example one of the first chapters covers a big list of different majors), I think it is still great for self-study beginners too. When I took a look at Minna-no-Nihongo a few years ago (and Genki as well for that matter) it seemed to me that a lot of the grammar exercises focused more on a 'get a feel for the grammar as if you were a native speaker' than providing the concrete rules that govern the different conversions/how different grammar points were related/ how things should be combined etc. Yookoso's explanations always seemed really straightforward and easy to understand by comparison (for me that is). At the end of every chapter there is also a section that focuses on reading/writing, there are tons of workbook problems and quizzes that coincide with the textbook chapters available online, and the kanji that are introduced each chapter also correspond with the vocabulary learned in that chapter (instead of the fairly haphazard way Minna-no-Nihongo eventually introduces them). After the first introductory section the whole book uses kanji and kana exclusively as well, so I think it's pretty useful in that respect for making you learn how to read those from the get go too. There are also audio CDs as well and a ton of appendices in the back related to different grammatical conversions too.

A lot of people complain that it's too expensive/the dialogues could be more thorough/the dictionary indexy thing in the back is lacking etc, but I was never really bothered by those things to be honest...

Apart from the obvious grammar (は, が, を etc.) what is basic and what not is pretty much subjective.

For example, I would think that -なんて would be a basic point but DoJG explains it in the Advanced volume. (Authors of DoJG took the position that the basic grammar terms are those which are treated in the beginner textbooks and organised the volumes accordingly.)

日本語文型辞典 doesn’t categorise the grammar points into beginer/advanced levels at all.

You could learn grammar by following order determined by JLPT level and that’s ok, isn’t it?

Either way, sooner or later you would need to learn most of the grammar, so I fail to see how imabi could be wrong in his order/selection.

A means somewhat effective for myself, being a person with a insatiable curiosity for different opinions and cross-references, has been extensive reading on a various array of grammatical explanations -both professionally published and personally published online- and different peoples opinions and employment of said usage patterns. The environment itself is somewhat immerse, non intentionally; Japanese media is merely a personal entertainment preference, so I cannot really comment on it's effectiveness as it has been around long prior to active target language study.

For a beginner, I would suggest that while using whichever textbook (most of the popular ones are useful as they provide some structure), don't shy away from being skeptical and continually searching for other definitions, descriptions, opinions, etc. as long as one doesn't fall into the trappings of taking online language learning guru-types too seriously, or any information too seriously; or taking your own comprehension too seriously and blocking the flow of information because it may not fall in line with a certain understanding you're come across from whichever source of information you favour during your self-study.

It's a little funny, I still consider myself more or less an illiterate beginner, despite being able to comprehend certain native material in a way which would be have impossible months ago. If I am like any typical Japanese language learner (which I believe so) it is that there is a period while initially learning the language in which there is only a limited amount of input and technical descriptions/information which is able to be used as information by the brain, and most of it being discarded until the conceptual framework which the language floats within (at least from the perspective of a native English speaker) has flooded your brain to a certain critical mass in which the descriptions and language itself becomes to seem less foreign and a larger amount is allowed to bathe in the brain without being telegraphed straight out the other side of your ear and into the ether.

That it to say -although I have no evidence- that there is a pre-beginner period to learning Japanese, which is more like an infantile phase, wherein even the most well-meant earnest and simple explanations of grammar and speech are not going to really be accessible, in a similar manner as a perfectly balanced nutritional adult needs to be broken down into a easily digestible mush which does not really represent anything remotely like the original meal, but for all intensive purposes, is enough for the infant to digest and get enough input in order to grow into the environment enough to access a more definite and detailed aspect of a nutritionally balanced diet.

That is to say, something extremely simple and enjoyable, while still introducing elements, even in very basic manner, will probably do more for the beginner until they have adapted enough to accept the conceptual framework in which the language evolves within. Something which takes an amount of active study/involvement time, and a certain amount for the brain to take it all in.

I actually read your website .
As I said, I do find the info there to be good, it's just really cluttered and imho not beginner friendly at all. The explanations are short indeed, but rarely thorough, and I find it more lacking than terse when it comes to shorter lessons; often when I encounter anything that's new, I'll open up a different resource to actually learn it. It's still throwing too much information at once, just without explaining it (which is worse than if the lessons were longer). Given how I need more brushing up and review than learning, it's pretty good for my current level. But finding new information in lesson 8 for beginners when I'm at N2 level is a bit weird.

It throws a lot of information at once, which makes it really difficult to follow unless you already know most of what's there (at least passively). After years of referring to things as the て、た、etc. forms it is really difficult to adjust to bases, which are far less of a tangible approach. I have no idea how anyone who would start out with bases would treat it though, but I don't think that's common =/.

They are similar in content. Personally, I'd go for Genki I for a 'first textbook' as with Minna no Nihongo you'll want to buy 2 books: the textbook and the translation.

It would be a good plan to go through Genki I, then borrow/obtain a copy of Minna and try doing it without the translation.

Eikyu wrote:

I would recommend Minna no Nihongo, based on my experience. But like most people, I've only used one of them.

Be careful though in that none of these textbooks are meant for self-study. Minna no nihongo for example doesn't have detailed explanations and doesn't provide the answers to the exercises. I think you can get those in a special teachers only book. It's really important IMO to do the exercises when you're learning a language. If you don't, you'll build up a false sense of confidence and reinforce some wrong patterns.

If you can afford it, I'd recommend at least having a once a week private lesson with a teacher.

Yep, and if anyone decides to purchase Genki be sure to get the Answer Key (answers for both Genki 1 and 2). I don't do the exercises in the textbook, instead I only use the Workbook and if there are any doubts then I search it up on Google.

Last edited by daevil (2013 April 08, 3:54 pm)

imabi wrote:

Having read a little bit more, I don't think talking about である is dumb. For one, it's where だ comes from. Furthermore, you're bound to see it. Where else would I talk about it? If the lesson is about the copula forms and it's way up there in importance--obviously not as high as the other two--then I'd have to go back.

About stuff like this: Have you considered doing two different versions of lessons?  If you look at a site like Erin's Challenge, even the basic lessons like 'Greetings' have two different versions: one for real beginners, and one for more advanced leaners who still have more to learn about greetings (for example, extremely polite or casual greetings that they might have seen but want an explanatoin for).

For example, in the lesson on the particle か you teach it as a final particle marking a question, and also in easy expressions like かどうか.  But then you have things like AかBないか and かそこら, which are certainly more rare, and more advanced.  If you had two pages, the first could explain just the very basic most prominent uses of か, and the second could be for more advanced leaners who might still have questions about phrases like AかBないか.  You could have a link on each lesson that says 'Advanced Version' or something like that.

I think something like that woud make your site waaaay more useful for beginners.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2013 April 08, 9:01 pm)