Inny Jan wrote:

I had this experience in the past but recently I run into the same problem again. I wanted to put a simple English sentence into Japanese and got it wrong. The English sentence was like:
“You'd better take a train at the time when it's not too crowded.”

What I got was:
”電車があまり込んでいない時に乗る方がいいです。”

Whereas the correct answer was:
”電車があまり込んでいない時に乗った方がいいです。”

乗る方が is wrong.

Any ideas how to work on fixing this kind of mistakes?

-た方がいいです is a basic grammar pattern.
There's no thinking involved at all.
You just need to read more japanese sentences.

IMHO, it's better to read native material and imitate what you read than
to make up sentences using your understanding of grammar.
Otherwise, you end up making sentences that are either wrong or
just something a native would never say.

Japanese grammar doesn't make sense to native speakers in the same way
it does to foreign language learners. You often end up injecting your native
language grammar into Japanese grammar, which causes many problems.

i feel like once you make those mistakes they kind of stick so that you never make them again

Inny Jan wrote:

@chamcham
There is this generally accepted view that the language skills, in terms of difficulty (hence, in terms of time required to gain a reasonable level of proficiency), progress from:

reading > listening > writing > speaking

I’m well, familiar with -方がいいです, so I wouldn’t miss it while reading. It would probably take more than one attempt to get it while listening (maybe on second, third pass?). Given that writing allows for longer time to think about patterns, I don’t think I would make that mistake while writing. But I do trip over when speaking. Given that the reading skill is far from the speaking skill, I don’t think that reading alone would improve the situation significantly, I’m convinced that you need do more than just engage in more reading. The obvious solution is to do more speaking but maybe there are other options as well?

For Japanese I'd say the order is:
listening ->  reading -> speaking -> writing

Listening is easiest because many languages (especially English) already
contains all the sounds that Japanese people make. So it's just a matter of
listening a lot.

Reading is second since it involves knowing the pronunciation.

Speaking is third. The act of speaking Japanese words is very easy (easier than listening
if there is furigana like they do in many manga). But putting things together in a
native-like manner takes time.

Writing is the most difficult, since physically writing kanji is a skill that is
not very popular these days and there's hardly enough opportunities to practice it.
Also, the grammar for writing is often very different from speaking and you'll only
ever see that grammar if you read a lot.

If you haven't already, I'd probably start reading Japanese subtitles for drama or
anime. I'm sure you'd find -方がいい often enough. Subtitles from anime (kitsunekko) or
drama (D-addicts) are great because it's all 100% spoken dialogue. So everything written
in the subtitles is spoken by either a live actor or voice actor. I think if you listen to natives
use their language often enough things will get easier.

Maybe some people don't like it, but I actually like to read out drama and anime subtitles.
Pretend like you're the actor and put some emotion into your voice. That helps a lot to prepare for real-life situations where you'll likely use the same kind of emotion. If you can
turn it into something more than passive reading/listening, it really helps.

Last edited by chamcham (2013 February 25, 10:30 pm)

Despite past misunderstandings, I think that it would also greatly benefit you by going through the example sentences on my site as well. They have been thoroughly checked by native speakers, and there are often very helpful labels added too. I would gladly extend my hand to help with anything possible. You're just in the process of reaching a new stage in your Japanese journey. So, the more exposure the better of course.

I think it's just a matter of practicing, as you have already said, until you get used to saying the correct grammar, especially when it comes to speaking.

A lot of the mistakes I make in speech now for example are just a product of the fact that I have built up a muscle memory for certain patterns more than others, whereas in the beginning I made mistakes simply because I didn't know the grammar well enough.

Taking your ～方がいい as an example, this could be used as (non-past)方がいい or (past)方がいい depending on what you want to say.
But I used to be so used to saying (past)方がいい that it just automatically came out sometimes even when I wanted to say (non-past)方がいい.

For example I might have wanted to make a simple comparison and want to say:
映画によっては、本を読む方がいい時もある

But instead accidentally say:
映画によっては、本を読んだ方がいい時もある

Obviously this isn't exactly a big mistake, but it seems like the kind of simple mistake you are talking about.

I have since fixed this particular example of my mistake by doing cloze deletion cards in Anki as people have said, however simply filling in the answer in Anki didn't help me.

I had to read my cards out loud, carefully thinking about the grammar point and making sure I understood the situation it would be used in and why.

Other people may not need to do that, but when it comes to fixing grammar mistakes I have to really think about the situations and reasons to use grammar in certain ways and then try to build up a kind of muscle memory buy reading examples out loud.

The other thing I do when I'm actually conversing with someone, is to try and notice my mistakes as I'm talking and correct it by saying the sentence over again in my head with the correct grammar, and try to make a mental note not to do the same thing next time.
Or even better, I stop at the mistake as I'm talking and repeat the sentence out loud with the correct grammar.

Of course you can't do that if you don't know you are making the mistake in the first place, but I'm assuming from your explanation that you do know you are making the mistakes or someone is correcting you.

I also make some very simple mistakes, mainly because I focus on the harder parts of the sentence (a term I'm not sure about, a grammar form that I'm not used to, etc). I like to think that once I start getting used to the rest, and thus can spread my focus to the entire sentence, the problem will solve itself.

Inny Jan wrote:

I’m well, familiar with -方がいいです, so I wouldn’t miss it while reading. It would probably take more than one attempt to get it while listening (maybe on second, third pass?). Given that writing allows for longer time to think about patterns, I don’t think I would make that mistake while writing. But I do trip over when speaking. Given that the reading skill is far from the speaking skill, I don’t think that reading alone would improve the situation significantly, I’m convinced that you need do more than just engage in more reading. The obvious solution is to do more speaking but maybe there are other options as well?

Yes, writing. Find some Japanese language forums you like, and participate in them. Do it carefully, maybe ask some of the participants to correct you. I don't think people would mind, as long as your mistakes are rare.

howtwosavealif3 wrote:

I make mcd cards all the time. they work.

There's really nothing else out there that forces you to focus in on grammar.  Often I'll make clozes before and after the grammar as well just to help reenforce it by constantly drawing my attention to both the grammar and the things surrounding it.

The problem is that in English we use "come" in many cases where you use 行く instead in Japanese (and no I don't mean *that* use ).  "Are you coming to the party on Friday?" is fine in English but you don't use 来る there in Japanese.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2013 February 26, 6:14 pm)

Thank you guys for your answers. I tried to summarise the responses that I got so far, and edited the original post for an easy look up. I think there is something for me (and others interested) to take from that.

Last edited by Inny Jan (2013 February 27, 4:50 am)

yudantaiteki wrote:

The problem with this is that った and る both work here, they just mean different things.

I don't know why but only yudantaiteki pointed out that る and った are both possible.

Similarly to the upper example, you can use both 来る and 行く for party but they have different nuance. The party doesn't necessarily need to be organized by the speaker in order to use 来る as well.

Last edited by Arupan (2013 February 27, 5:22 am)

Zgarbas wrote:

yudantaiteki wrote:

The problem is that in English we use "come" in many cases where you use 行く instead in Japanese (and no I don't mean *that* use ).  "Are you coming to the party on Friday?" is fine in English but you don't use 来る there in Japanese.

Can't you?
Are you coming to the party = My party, or where I'm involved. Wouldn't 来る be appropriate? （私の）パーティーに来るかい。
Are you going to the party= generic party, 行く makes sense.

Of course, you'd probably use "coming to the party" for both cases in English, but it's still a detour you can take.　

The problem is when you can use "coming" in English but not in Japanese.  I shouldn't have given that contextless example because either can work, but in English you can say "Are you coming to the party" even if it's not at your house or you're not organizing it.  In Japanese you usually can't.

Are you going to the party? (It doesn't matter what I do, but are YOU going?)
Are you coming to the party? (I AM going to the party, are you AS WELL?)

That's the way that it works in English, but I don't think it works like that in Japanese.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2013 February 27, 6:43 am)