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Stansfield123 wrote:
Rsun1 wrote:
So, reading AJJAT you will find out that you should:
1)Study Heisig's book 1 and 3se
2)Listen to 10,000 hours of japanese
3)And pick up 10,000 sentences and add them into ANKI.
Considering these three points, all his other posts are around them.This isn't true. But of course OP probably already knows this. Unless he's still reading this thread of course, in which case I really don't care about what OP thinks.
As you said on your previous post, AJJAT is about learning japanese, and was/is very useful for me.But what I wrote is its starting point http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl … view-page.
Didn't mean to undervalue it at all. I've notice that topics about it are quite controversial here.
it is very helpful, I myself am trying its approach after studying japanese for one year and feeling like going nowhere.
Also, despite the fact that I haven't tried those silverspoon stuff he is selling now, I believe it may help you on finding out the best ways to learn japanese but don't expect it to teach you japanese. If you go there with such expectation, you will be disappointed.
Is there something else equivalent to the AJATT 10,000 sentences concept that's more academically sound? I know the guy has good intentions, but I would be more comfortable with a more systematic and credible system.
^Have you read up on the Antimoon methods, from which the AJATT blog credits as being the inspiration of the "AJATT 10,000 sentences concept"? It may interest you.
Re: academically sound.
Though language learning has been getting lots of attention, there are no proven right or wrong methods to doing it. There are no "academically sound" methods, either. The closest you can come by is the ways in which textbooks are made, which, if you've picked up different language textbooks, you'll notice that there is surprisingly little uniformity between them. There are some basic guidelines but no set rules: some will dive in with texts from the first lesson, vocabulary between textbooks varies, etc. and once the textbooks are past absolute beginner level they have little in common with one another. Textbooks are also made with school in mind, so while there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing 2+ lessons at once you're by default going against their basic idea.
In other words, there is no right or wrong way to learning a language. The best way, imho, is to just spend a bit of time looking up each of the more popular methods and seeing which works best for you. What works wonders for some does nothing for others.
So you can read the basic premise of AJATT and if for whatever reason you don't like it, then look up someone else. You can find people's learning stories (both of success, of failure and of in progress) throughout the forum, and the internet.
Though, there are no "benefits" to using any one method. Any benefits are of your own doing
.
chamcham wrote:
Don't forget that Khatz (author of AJATT) went from no Japanese to fluent in 18 months. Fluent enough to be hired as a software engineer at a large Japanese company in Tokyo. And during that period, he had a girlfriend and was in college working towards his computer science degree.
Does this really have anything to do with the OP learning Japanese? Some guy lost 100lbs eating Twinkies. Does this guy's story have to somehow be relevant to everyone struggling with obesity? There are success stories like this all over the internet. They say little about the underlying methods. I don't know why people get sucked in by them.
I'm sure his Japanese was relatively good for someone who'd been at it for 18 months, impressed the interviewers, good enough to function within the company and write a passable japanese resume. But he was hired as a software engineer not a salesman or other client facing role, and I imagine his primary task was coding. You don't necessarily need super stellar japanese to get a job in Japan. It's hard to comment without knowing his exact circumstances, but it's even possible that English skill was seen as a bigger plus than Japanese for that particular job.
lhong1987 wrote:
The first thing I do is reading the manual front to back (am I the only one who does this?).
and when it comes to jumbled mess of a manual, AJATT takes the cake.
Norman wrote:
Is there something else equivalent to the AJATT 10,000 sentences concept that's more academically sound? I know the guy has good intentions, but I would be more comfortable with a more systematic and credible system.
Zgarbas wrote:
Re: academically sound.
Though language learning has been getting lots of attention, there are no proven right or wrong methods to doing it. There are no "academically sound" methods, either. The closest you can come by is the ways in which textbooks are made, which, if you've picked up different language textbooks, you'll notice that there is surprisingly little uniformity between them. There are some basic guidelines but no set rules: some will dive in with texts from the first lesson, vocabulary between textbooks varies, etc. and once the textbooks are past absolute beginner level they have little in common with one another. Textbooks are also made with school in mind, so while there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing 2+ lessons at once you're by default going against their basic idea.
If you want proper writing and support in form of observations and conclusions from academical studies, I'd suggest you read or listen to what Stephen Krashen has to say.
http://sdkrashen.com/Principles_and_Practice/index.html
There are some talks of his on youtube, including some of his recent work about the effects sustained silent reading has, on foreign languages, but also on our native languages which he brings up in the subject of problems with the education in America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh6Hy6El86Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXJwGFpfCY8 <- reading
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqVhgSvwWYk <- conversation with Steve Kaufmann, I really like this one.
My "academically sound" comment was simply in response to something I read on the AJATT website. Someone inquired about sorting sentences to begin studying, since the 10,000 aren't sorted in any particular order, apparently. The reply from the website was something to the effect of, "Dude, pick whichever one you like. Haha! It's all good."
That gave me some doubts about the quality of it in an academic sense, although I personally haven't ventured into that website so much. I only took a peek at it today after reading this post about it. It might be fine, but I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my earlier comment.
As TwoMoreCharacters mentioned, Khatz refers to Stephen Krashen quite a bit (although he gets a lot of Krashen wrong, I think.) A cornerstone of Krashen's ideas is free voluntary reading -- reading whatever you find interesting. So in that sense, "Dude, pick whichever one you like" is not necessarily too far off!
Wow.
I just wanted to share that I can't read AJATT because of his writing style.
I'm more used to clear and concise/structured writing and his style seemed like a rambling.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks his writing style is terrible.
I just noticed many people swear by AJATT and wanted to find out if I was missing out on something great.
So the whole point of the website is quite simply "immersion" which I suspected but doubted.
Thanks for the heated discussion/blog suggestions while I fell asleep doing some kanji SRS.
Should be hitting half-way mark on joyo kanji today.
Norman wrote:
My "academically sound" comment was simply in response to something I read on the AJATT website. Someone inquired about sorting sentences to begin studying, since the 10,000 aren't sorted in any particular order, apparently. The reply from the website was something to the effect of, "Dude, pick whichever one you like. Haha! It's all good."
As referenced by TwoMoreCharacters, Stephen Krashen's Input Hypothesis is "academically sound" and would vehemently disagree with not sorting sentences.
Khatzu obviously knows of the "i+1" concept, has posted, in the past, about choosing sentences that are only a little difficult, I've seen plenty of mentions of Stephen Krashen on his site, and I doubt he's purposely giving bad advice, thus I assume he said this simply because he doesn't know a good way to sort sentences and doesn't want to scare people away or demotivate them by outright saying "sentences /should/ be sorted by difficulty but you can't sort them easily, just deal with things being harder than they should".
That's false, by the way; we have easy ways to sort sentences by difficulty now. I maintain the Morph Man plugin for Anki that does exactly that. It's not perfect (uses mecab for morphological analysis and thus doesn't factor in grammar difficulty, loan words, etc) but going from sentences that Morph Man suggests are "i+1" to "pick whichever one you like" is barbaric. Morph Man aside, cangy has a core6k deck called "kore" with like 5 sorting orders based on different calculations, essentially all of which are superior to the default and are based on assorted tools of his which you can find publically.
Javizy wrote:
chamcham wrote:
Don't forget that Khatz (author of AJATT) went from no Japanese to fluent in 18 months. Fluent enough to be hired as a software engineer at a large Japanese company in Tokyo. And during that period, he had a girlfriend and was in college working towards his computer science degree.
Does this really have anything to do with the OP learning Japanese? Some guy lost 100lbs eating Twinkies. Does this guy's story have to somehow be relevant to everyone struggling with obesity? There are success stories like this all over the internet. They say little about the underlying methods. I don't know why people get sucked in by them.
You're taking it completely out of context. I was replying to a comment saying to be skeptical of his claims that someone could reach fluency in 18 months using AJATT. I was just pointing out that he went from zero to fluent in 18 months. He could pretty much read and understand most things by then. He was hired by a big Japanese software company. I've been to the Boston Career Forum and all the big Japanese software companies only wanted native-level Japanese speakers. They had no need for English at all. It is a big deal because it's unusual to reach such a high level of proficiency in a very short time period.
Last edited by chamcham (2013 February 14, 9:30 am)
Actually, Stephen Krashen's "i+1" concept doesn't really have much to do with the idea of choosing to study sentences that have exactly one unknown element, or sorting sentences by difficulty.
The idea of "i+1" is that you don't need to precisely tune the difficulty level of what you're studying. If you're getting input that you can understand, and that's not sorted (as in a textbook, for example) for whatever grammar element you're supposed to study next, that input is going to naturally contain whatever aspect of grammar it is that you haven't yet acquired yet but are close to acquiring. So, for example, the way to learn how "Wh-" questions are formed isn't to drill "Wh-" questions specifically, but just to get a lot of comprehensible input, which will naturally contain "Wh-" questions, and you'll acquire them when you're ready.
"i+1" is specifically not about new words, but about new grammar structures.
(2) We acquire by understanding language that contains structure a [b]it
beyond our current level of competence (i + 1). This is done with the help of
context or extra-linguistic information.
A third part of the input hypothesis says that input must contain i + 1 to be useful for
language acquisition, but it need not contain only i + 1. It says that if the acquirer understands the input, and there is enough of it, i + 1 will automatically be provided. In other words, if communication is successful, i + 1 is provided. As we will discuss later, this implies that the best input should not even attempt to deliberately aim at i + 1. We are all familiar with syllabi that try to deliberately cover i + 1. There is a "structure of the day", and usually both teacher and student feel that the aim of the lesson is to teach or practice a specific grammatical item or structure. Once this structure is "mastered", the syllabus proceeds to the next one. This part of the input hypothesis implies that such a deliberate attempt to provide i + 1 is not necessary. As we shall see later, there are reasons to suspect that it may even be harmful.
Thus, part (3) of the input hypothesis is:
(3) When communication is successful, when the input is understood and there
is enough of it, i + 1 will be provided automatically.
The final part of the input hypothesis states that speaking fluency cannot be taught
directly. Rather, it "emerges" over time, on its own.
(From Principles and Practice in Second Language Acquisition, http://www.sdkrashen.com/Principles_and … actice.pdf)
Fillanzea wrote:
Actually, Stephen Krashen's "i+1" concept...
Correct. There are unfortuantely two meanings for "i+1" floating around, one is Krashen's "next structure" wrt his natural order hypothesis and the other is as a popular term meaning "what you know plus one thing you don't". The confusion is my fault for using the second while also talking about Krashen, which would otherwise imply the first. I actually changed Morph Man 3 to use "k+N" and "m+N" to attempt to replace that second usage, but it hasn't really caught on yet (no wonder, if even I forget to use it).
Either way, the point still stands that even if we assume** i+1 is naturally present in the sentences you plan on studying, you still need to limit yourself to comprehensible input. Krashen references Hatch's work, and points out the following characteristics to look for
Hatch wrote:
(1) slower rate and clearer articulation, which helps acquirers to identify word boundaries more easily, and allows more processing time;
(2) more use of high frequency vocabulary, less slang, fewer idioms;
(3) syntactic simplification, shorter sentences.
All of these are things you can sort sentences on. I'll also point out that #2 is simply a heuristic to avoiding sentences with too much new/unfamiliar vocabulary, which doesn't require more percisely monitoring vocab knowledge.
Morph Man employs #2, both the high frequency heuristic (based on frequency of morphemes within your Anki collection) and the more accurate, monitoring based, assessment of new/unfamiliar words (via k+N and m+N based on Anki card maturity) as well as #3 (it also avoids too short / trivial sentences as well). I don't know of any automated tools for sorting by #1, but that doesn't make it in any way less valid.
**: We should also consider this assumption may be false:
Krashen's Principles and Practice wrote:
As pointed out just a moment ago, comprehension is a necessary condition for language acquisition, but it is not sufficient. It is quite possible to understand input language, and yet not acquire. This can happen in several different ways: First, it is quite possible that the input simply does not contain i + 1, that it does not include structures that are "a bit beyond" the student. Second, in many cases we do not utilize syntax in understanding--we can often get the message with a combination of vocabulary, or lexical information, plus extralinguistic information. Finally, the "affective filter" may be "up", which can result in the acquirer understanding input, even input with i + 1, but not utilizing it for further acquisition.
The first case (presence of i+1) can be detected and is a viable filter (and thus sort), though I'm not aware of any automated tools for accurately tracking grammar knowledge. The second case can be achieved by choosing sentences more difficult than m+0 (but still comprehensible). The final case is not a filter in and of itself, but further backs the idea of focusing on "easy" sentences that don't cause too much of a struggle and trivial sentences that invoke boredom.
Continuing on that last case, it may be worth noting that whether a sentence is interesting, something most subs2srs advocaters would argue for, is "academically sound" as well. I'd highly suggest you tag/organize your sentences by topic so you can quickly switch between them according to mood.
Krashen wrote:
Experimental evidence suggests that students pay little or no attention to meaning after the first few repetitions in pattern drill (Lee, McCune, and Patton, 1970), and the same result is most likely true for dialogues that are memorized by rote.
...
Some other fairly widespread input types that fall short of the mark of true relevance
are the reading assignments that most foreign language students work through in introductory courses. Generally, these selections bear very little resemblance to the kind of reading the students would do in their first language on their own time.
I know if I don't have anything productive to add to the thread I shouldn't type anything, but I just want to say that these types of threads make my head hurt. I hope I'm not the only one. Sure makes me feel as if I'll never reach the general level of what fluency is conceived as since I'm probably not partaking in even a portion of the study methods available.
TheVinster wrote:
...I just want to say that these types of threads make my head hurt...makes me feel as if I'll never reach the general level of what fluency is conceived as since I'm probably not partaking in even a portion of the study methods available.
Honestly, you can probably ignore all the theory if you just read native material as much as possible (and everything that requires and implies). Everything else is just improving efficiency or explicitly pointing out some corollary.
TheVinster wrote:
I know if I don't have anything productive to add to the thread I shouldn't type anything, but I just want to say that these types of threads make my head hurt. I hope I'm not the only one. Sure makes me feel as if I'll never reach the general level of what fluency is conceived as since I'm probably not partaking in even a portion of the study methods available.
The only way to fail, really, is to quit. As long as we keep going we should be improving little by little, to whatever measure. I don't think it should be necessary to try to conform to everything there is to try, do something and keep doing it.
The thing with what we're talking about in this thread though, is that there's a lot of text and information to go through that in practice really says something simple: Get a lot of exposure to the language that you can understand and enjoy. Because simply saying "listen and read a lot" isn't very convincing for everyone (calling it "The Compelling Input Hypothesis" alone isn't any different either, which is why you'd need to read into what it is).
This "study method" doesn't have to be difficult to commit to and it doesn't have to conflict with other means of study (unless your time is very, very limited). Aside from what else you do to learn Japanese, spend some time everyday not neglecting to enjoy doing things in Japanese. Doesn't have to be different from things you normally enjoy doing that aren't in Japanese.
David_jp_23 wrote:
I would love to read AJATT but the dude is a an absolutely terrible writer.
brilliant.
I'd say that I like his posts but am not enrapt. It's not Anna Karenina. but within the world of japanese-language-study blogging he is without a doubt putting the most energy into writing something that is both useful AND amusing.
maybe you don't like your-mother/sister jokes... or drug/prostitute humour, or whatever. It's not high-brow for sure but a damn sight more entertaining than that guy at jlevel up.
also while I am generally not into fuzzy-science (have an accounting degree and almost failed organizational behaviour) I really find his motivational articles to be great for orienting one's values re a large language project. Being very upbeat, having a thick skin when things get hard, tactics to make things fun (because they can get boring)... these are practically useless in terms of a RTFM approach... but were a great help to me starting out, reminding myself that I could actually accomplish this large goal, in the face of the adult language-learning failure that one encounters at pretty much every turn in the united states.
lhong1987 wrote:
Wow.
I just wanted to share that I can't read AJATT because of his writing style.
I'm more used to clear and concise/structured writing and his style seemed like a rambling.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks his writing style is terrible.
I just noticed many people swear by AJATT and wanted to find out if I was missing out on something great.
So the whole point of the website is quite simply "immersion" which I suspected but doubted.
Thanks for the heated discussion/blog suggestions while I fell asleep doing some kanji SRS.
Should be hitting half-way mark on joyo kanji today.
@lhong198
Yup, immersion and all the other basics.
Good job!
dtcamero wrote:
brilliant.
It was a typo. Even the great writers make typos.
dtcamero wrote:
I'd say that I like his posts but am not enrapt. It's not Anna Karenina. but within the world of japanese-language-study blogging he is without a doubt putting the most energy into writing something that is both useful AND amusing.
maybe you don't like your-mother/sister jokes... or drug/prostitute humour, or whatever. It's not high-brow for sure but a damn sight more entertaining than that guy at jlevel up.
Yeah, but plenty of people think the exact opposite. The guy at JLevel Up seems to me like your average mediocre writer, but Khatz comes off as obnoxious and annoying. Other people really like his writing.
Comic writing is hard. I like David Cross and Jon Stewart just fine when they do standup or talk shows (though Cross can slip into being a bit annoying at times), but I didn't find their writing to be very funny when I bought "I Drink For a Reason" and "Naked Pictures of Famous People." It's a hard medium, even for professionals.
I, for one, prefer humorless writing to bad comic writing. Just a personal preference. I can't read Khatz, but I can understand that others like his style.
Tzadeck wrote:
I, for one, prefer humorless writing to bad comic writing. Just a personal preference.
I agree with you 100%. When I'm trying to focus and study, comedy is a distraction. However, I think the Web 2.0 concept plays a part in these rambling comedic attempts to create a social group following. It's a marketing tactic that may lure interest in their sites. I can see the value of it, but I think the socializing shouldn't overlap the educational sections.
I guess, to each his own...but I just got an ad email selling his new sentence pack or whatever that started like this:
Khatzumoto wrote:
Hey!
It 's your friendly neighborhood Khatzumoto.
Look. Let me be real with you.
All those jokes I told about your sister were just that: jokes.
In truth, her and I were never involved, because she's just not that attractive wait I think this is making the situation worse.
Let me rephrase that.
I love your sister more than anything in the world. More than mangoes...
What? Your sister has nice mangoes...
And I like her more than that, so I'm actually *un*objectifying her!
No?
Let's agree to disagree.
But facts are facts...
that's funny!
dtcamero wrote:
I guess, to each his own...but I just got an ad email selling his new sentence pack or whatever that started like this:
Khatzumoto wrote:
Hey!
It 's your friendly neighborhood Khatzumoto.
Look. Let me be real with you.
All those jokes I told about your sister were just that: jokes.
In truth, her and I were never involved, because she's just not that attractive wait I think this is making the situation worse.
Let me rephrase that.
I love your sister more than anything in the world. More than mangoes...
What? Your sister has nice mangoes...
And I like her more than that, so I'm actually *un*objectifying her!
No?
Let's agree to disagree.
But facts are facts...that's funny!
If you say so. Somehow I managed to get through that whole hilarious thing without even cracking a smile.
When I read his rambling, the great words of Mr. Burns come to mind: "You are what?! Selling light bulbs? Worried about the whales? Keen on Jesus? Out with it!"
Last edited by quark (2013 February 14, 8:58 pm)
Khatzumoto wrote:
In truth, her and I were never involved, because she's just not that attractive wait I think this is making the situation worse.
I suppose that the broken grammar and lack of punctuation helps create a juvenile tone that makes this sort of humor work for some people.
We are assuming this 'broken grammar' is crafted purposely for such an effect. I'm not making such an assumption. Someone with the responsibility of assisting learners in a foreign language while displaying an inability to correctly communicate in their own native language makes me a bit skeptical and reluctant to follow the crowd on this one.

