meolox wrote:

"You're left with learning what is just a list of useless information."

I'm afraid I said that. It sounds a lot worse in isolation than it was intended to in the context of my post though. I was referring to the fact that I thought that the lack of a proper context would be detrimental as we learn better things that are in a useful context rather than lists of random things. Which I believe is true in general but I realize now that stories provide enough meaningful context so that doesn't apply.

As I said at the time, it was the first time I heard about the Heisig method and based on my initial impression. Obviously I've changed my mind since then (and posted about it in Tae Kim's follow up blog entry).

I think he probably doesn't give it much of a chance because he never tried it, and at this point he knows Japanese well enough that he's not likely to try it.

Same goes for most of the people leaving comments. They've never tried it, or if they did they didn't stick with it long enough.  People tend to disbelieve things when they seem too easy.  Heisig's method actually requires a lot of work, but just reading the summery of it, it sounds "too easy", hence most people will disbelieve it unless they actually try it themselves.  But then pride or ego steps in and they won't even give it a chance because they already don't believe it in, thus you get some of the posts that show an incredibly amount of anger and hatred towards it.

Try not to get too pissed at them. They've already made up their minds and have too much invested in their opposition to Heisig to listen to you, no matter how logical and good your argument may be.  So I say just let them alone.  Live and let live, eh? With luck they'll come around eventually.

Last edited by dbooster (2008 January 07, 6:06 pm)

One of the "reasons" that some people say they don't believe the system works is something like:

           "I've never seen a 'Japanese 10th dan black belt' expert promoting the system"

Well, something they never say is that those "Japanese experts" aren't very common on internet fora and webs alike at all. I could say something like: "I've never met a non-native speaker of Japanese that had mastered the language" and that wouldn't mean at all that learning Japanese is impossible. Besides, if you get such a high level of fluency in Japanese, most probably you won't be messing around on a forum about learning Japanese.

Well, the best "we" can do is just go through RTK, work hard, "reach" fluency and come back here to tell other people what happened.

Last edited by Transtic (2008 January 07, 6:54 pm)

rich_f wrote:

meolox wrote:

Any opinions on the subject or stories about turning non-believers onto the method?

There's no point to it. They will either learn some other way, give up (most likely), or eventually come to the method when they're ready to. There's not really a whole lot you can say to someone who isn't willing to listen, and frankly, I'd rather use my free time learning, and not wasting it on people who won't listen.

Personally, I was skeptical of the method until I downloaded the first 125 pages and tried it myself. Only after I understood what he was getting at by experiencing it myself did I come to believe in it.

All you can do is relate your own experiences with the method, and leave them to come to their own conclusions. Trying to do anything more than that is probably a waste of time. People who don't want to believe something won't believe it no matter how much evidence you present to the contrary.

I think you got it dead on, if they don't want help from the Heisig method to make things easier for them then they don't deserve it

I am biased towards the Heisig method as well but I don't see how linking to other forum threads that disagree with it is going to help anything except to provoke an argument. There are better ways to spend your energy.

No, not non-argumentative types, but rather a lot of us had enough arguments for some time on the topic. And the existence of this forums is not primarily to argue, at least I don't see it that way.
I stopped arguing about the Heisig-method in another forum until I've finished the book. So back to the book....

There are many beginners among the comments who really could use the benefits of the Heisig system who denounce it's effectiveness before even giving it a chance, I think many of them are jumping on the "Lots of fluent people did it the rote way so that must be the best way to do it" bandwagon, I pity beginners who doubt the Heisig method having once been a Heisig-nonbeliever myself I'm glad I gave it a proper chance and actually realized from the start that RTK is just one step and it doesn't promise anything more than that described in the intro.

I think there is a stigma attached to doing something easily that is traditionally hard in a short amount of time and most people will doubt you know kanji just as well as someone who did it via rote, it's a shame because there are too many smart people who have used the Heisig method, well more people find the Hesig method everyday and like it so our numbers are sure to increase

_Qbe_ wrote:

When people get religious about their learning methods, there's little point in arguing with them.

Like us, right?  We're all calling them "unbelievers," after all.

I suggest "infidels."  Or "the unwashed." 

I love "inifidel" although lets not be too harsh on them, they'll see the light one day, I know i did

Frankly I think that if you don't like the method and want to do it the rote way then go right ahead.  Waste your time  (Not that it won't work but I'll be able to do the same in about the 1/10 the time).  When we both go in for interviews for a job and my kanji is better then the other guy's I think that will feel better then winning any argument on a forum.

Last edited by skinnyneo (2008 January 11, 7:50 am)

Nukemarine wrote:

Dangerous mindset to take. Finishing RTK is not learning Japanese. It's to make the LATER learning of Japanese more efficient (and for those that know Japanese to compliment their writings). The ones taking the "traditional" route are learning spoken Japanese in addition to writing. By the end of their study, they should have about 500 Kanji down to a level they can read reasonably well in addition to speaking. Nothing to sneeze at and can result in a job (JET at the very least, assuming you have a pulse, and even that can be waived).

Yes, I think the Heisig method is better. However, even I notice: some doing RTK cannot do the visual stories too well, some do not do the visual stories at all. Such RTK learners may hit that brick wall that stops their progress (and thereby their efforts to learn Japanese).

Basicly, don't take an elitist attitude. Have appreciation for any and all that want to learn Japanese (and Kanji, naturally). Except for a very select few on this board, none of us know Japanese yet so should not be saying we're better or even have the advantage. We've merely chosen a path, so should be wary until the destination has been reached.

I agree with you that to each his own, as well as learning RTK is NOT by any means learning Japanese.  But it is a much shorter path to learning Kanji in the long run.  And if those don't want to take it that's fine.  It's the fact that i have walked both paths and it's more the elitest attitude of those who aren't willing to give it a go (I'm referencing the comments made on Tae Kim's post) that I am referring to.

Last edited by skinnyneo (2008 January 12, 12:37 am)

Yeah, I had a similar experience at Yamasa this past October. My teacher was impressed that I got the kanji in her name right the first time, and could remember it. She wasn't too surprised to hear about Heisig, though, since I'm sure they get a lot of people there who have done it (and the rest are Chinese.)