Decent J-E dictionaries give a bunch of definitions and have example sentences. Just choose whichever fits the context of what you're reading. You're not going to nail down and permanently remember a difficult word the first time you see it anyway. You just need something good enough to keep progressing through the content.

I guess I'm mostly talking about free online dictionaries. I still use jisho.org but if I really want to understand a word's nuance and usage I go to a Japanese source.

Gorilla wrote:

Right now it feels really frustrating to have to use monolingual dictionaries, it seems to me that once you reach the point where you no longer need to use your L1 all the time that it becomes a snowball effect and becomes more exciting each day.

The reasons for J-J.

From what I can tell J-E allows you to manipulate information, but a monolingual approach forces you to adapt.


edit:
Different languages have different vibes. The "consensus" on this thread is pretty accurate. Use both, one or none.

darkjapanese.wordpress wrote:

The languages thus interact, enhancing learning by allowing knowledge to be transferred, and necessarily creating a version of the target language that’s unique (e.g. rather than every difference from the native monolingual’s version of the target language being a mistake, deviating from native use, often it’s simply an artefact of multilingualism and bicultural identity). Translanguaging, using both languages, is a fundamental part of the multilingual’s identity and life, and being able to stick to one language as one desires comes from forming strong connections and building a repertoire, connecting new word forms to semantic knowledge, internalizing grammatical patterns, and using the L1 to progressively develop a strong L2 base through which using the L1 becomes merely an option, rather than a necessity.

Last edited by Aspiring (2013 June 11, 4:43 pm)

Aspiring wrote:

Gorilla wrote:

Right now it feels really frustrating to have to use monolingual dictionaries, it seems to me that once you reach the point where you no longer need to use your L1 all the time that it becomes a snowball effect and becomes more exciting each day.

The reasons for J-J.

From what I can tell J-E allows you to manipulate information, but a monolingual approach forces you to adapt.

That article is the biggest load of bullcrap I've read in some time.

A bigger problem is the author of the article seems to think that if you learn the meaning of a word by looking it up in a J->E dictionary that you will forever after be doomed to translate it in and out of English in your head.

He has a very nice chart about the difference between internally translating a language and directly using the language, but he hasn't shown any evidence that you actually do more internal translation based on the language of the dictionary you looked the word up in.

I prefer J->E dictionaries for their bilingual example sentences, but J->J dictionaries are useful too. (Especially when a given word -doesn't- have example sentences in the J->E dictionary and the definition is terse and ambiguous; although there are terse and ambiguous J->J entries too.) Using yahoo, it's only a click away to switch dictionaries anyway so I'll often look at several definitions if a word really has that much subtlety to it.

I am making the switch to use J-J sentences. I am adding around 5-10 a day J-J sentences a day. Would it be bad to add J-E sentences as well J-J or just hold off using on J-E?

Last edited by jordan3311 (2013 June 07, 10:39 pm)

The idea of using only a J-J dictionary or only a J-E dictionary doesn't make much sense. When I'm looking up words from reading material, I'll look at the J-J definition first. If I can understand it, that's what I'll put into Anki. If not, then I look at the English definition.  The idea of 'branching' sounds so convoluted for very little benefit.  Who wants to spend hours looking up words in a dictionary in order to understand the definitions for the words that were initially being looked up?

The idea behind branching is like a recursive look up.

You look up the definition in your J-J dictionary, but you can't understand it because the definition contains too many words that you don't know, but rather than giving up and going with a J-E definition you instead lookup the definition of the words you don't know in your J-J dictionary. However, this may result in some more definitions you can't understand due to too many words you don't know, and so you repeat the process and look those words up as well.

Eventually, at least in theory, you'll get to a definition that you can understand, and so you can start to work your way back up the tree of definitions you've built up.

It sounds like it has merit, but it also seems like an awful lot of effort. I've never tried this, so it's not really fair of me to comment beyond that.

What I will be doing, personally, is looking up monolingual definitions at 1000 J-E sentences and then looking up words I don't know in the definition in a J-E dictionary. Seems like a good way to get used to J-J definitions.

It's pretty easy:
J-E when it makes sense, J-J when J-E doesn't make sense, or doesn't have it

I think a lot of the problem is when people talk about the superiority of J-J dictionaries, they are comparing Daijirin or something to EDICT (as opposed to Eijiro, etc).  It's apples and oranges.

Sure J-J entries are reading practice, but they are also probably the most boring such practice imaginable...

Last edited by Sauzer (2013 June 08, 8:57 am)

nadiatims wrote:

Anyone who has reached a certain level can read J-J dictionary definitions but surely there are more interesting ways to spend your time. The idea that using J-J definitions achieves some better result by building translation avoiding brain circuitry or something is totally bogus because a word is not set in stone the first time you see it.

Monolingual dictionary use is a nonsense idea that people cling to because it appeals to their sense of being hardcore or purist or something.

I kind of want to frame this and put it on my wall. Well said.

I use J-E to get a foothold into a word's meaning, and then use context to build up the word's various shades of meaning in my head. I occasionally consult a (free, online) J-J dictionary to get the nuance of a word or an example sentence. I tried J-J when I was just starting out, and found I was spending 10-15 minutes in the dictionary chasing down definitions to understand the definitions. Huge waste of time.

dtcamero wrote:

I think the value of working with a kokugo dictionary is that it is a list of phrases that explain words. As a language student there are many times when you'll be speaking and then get stuck, unable to remember the word you want. Internalizing the mechanics of a kokugo dictionary is a good way to become experienced at describing things,... in place of the word you actually want to use.

[offtopic] Windows IME provides a similar function when selecting kanji readings. Often simple phrases or fragments of a sentence which have a few times provided a sense of understanding to the contextual usage, of which a general definition of the word didn't quite allude to. Great little feature. Err... back on topic[/offtopic]

dtcamero wrote:

Internalizing the mechanics of a kokugo dictionary is a good way to become experienced at describing things,... in place of the word you actually want to use.

I've never really understood this either; it certainly depends on the kokugo dictionary you use, but dictionaries use a pretty stilted form of Japanese that native speakers don't really use.  If you forgot the word 財布, you're probably going to be looking for some phrase like 金を入れるヤツ, not 金銭を入れて持ち歩く袋。金入れ。(or 明鏡's お金をいれておく携帯用の入れ物).