Isn't the "woman saying no but secretly meaning yes" part also present in Western culture(the whole "she's just playing hard to get" thing)? Aside from the porn being much more disturbing, I'm not sure how that is simply a Japanese thing.

erlog wrote:

I apologize for the crude example, but there's really no more apparent example of these concepts within the culture.

That's an interesting observation. Then again, I suppose you could say that there's no greater satisfaction than to corrupt the pure and innocent which is common in most countries.

Another thing worth pointing out is that although it is claimed that Japan has a rape culture, their sex crime ratea (and crime in general) are lower than most other developed countries.

One last thing worth pointing out is that my friend's brother told me that a relatively large amount of internet real rape videos comes from Russia. I'm not sure whether their rape culture is bigger or smaller than Japan's though.

Last edited by qwertyytrewq (2013 January 13, 5:01 am)

erlog wrote:

It's one of the more striking differences. I really didn't understand what "rape culture," or patriarchy were about until I saw very clear extreme examples of it in Japan. It's less clear in the West in the modern day thanks to the various women's equality movements even though, admittedly, it still exists.

Hmm, that contradicts what I read on the internet though.

I thought Japanese men in general were effeminate shy "herbivores" at best while socially crippled NEETs at worst? While Japanese women are career driven individuals who are rejecting local Japanese manchilds and seeking more manly men abroad? How can otaku manchildren possibly have the ability to uphold the supposed patriarcal women-oppressing structure?

I'm not saying you or the internet is right or wrong because I don't know.

qwertyytrewq wrote:

erlog wrote:

It's one of the more striking differences. I really didn't understand what "rape culture," or patriarchy were about until I saw very clear extreme examples of it in Japan. It's less clear in the West in the modern day thanks to the various women's equality movements even though, admittedly, it still exists.

Hmm, that contradicts what I read on the internet though.

I thought Japanese men in general were effeminate shy "herbivores" at best while socially crippled NEETs at worst? While Japanese women are career driven individuals who are rejecting local Japanese manchilds and seeking more manly men abroad? How can otaku manchildren possibly have the ability to uphold the supposed patriarcal women-oppressing structure?

I'm not saying you or the internet is right or wrong because I don't know.

The key here is the comparison to foreign men. Foreign men in Japan are seen as rapist barbarians. So any comparison of Japanese men to that foreigner straw man will give the impression that Japanese men are "weak." You're also overestimating the number of otaku, and their impact on the overall Japanese culture.

The image you portray of Japanese women is an overreaction within Japanese culture to women in the workforce and the small amounts of progress that have been made. Compared to the very traditional gender rolls of the past, the modern Japanese woman is definitely viewed in the lens you described. However, when the situation is compared to the west, gender equality is still decades behind.

To go with this thread's theme, you're essentially delivering the 建前 while I'm discussing the 本音. I have no doubt that the Japanese themselves see it as you describe. I have read those same things too. It just doesn't stack up at all to what I've seen of the culture while living here.

Last edited by erlog (2013 January 13, 5:27 am)

erlog wrote:

To go with this thread's theme, you're essentially delivering the 建前 while I'm discussing the 本音. I have no doubt that the Japanese themselves see it as you describe. I have read those same things too. It just doesn't stack up at all to what I've seen of the culture while living here.

Actually I'm not Japanese so I don't care about tatemae. In truth, I finished my Anki reviews for today and rewarding myself by letting off steam by forum posting in a contrarian style on controversial topics, and watching the results.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no stake in the issue.

erlog wrote:

I didn't say that and you know it. I was describing how rape culture affects everyone.

Well as I said, the scenario you described sounds complicated. First you said there was consent and then it leads to "rape," and then they went to sleep without going to the police.

Please read this article

Thanks, I'll read it later.

It isn't a solution to the problem.

I guess the core problem is the supposed "rape culture"?

qwertyytrewq wrote:

I can play this game too. Show me statistics on false rape cases. I'll wait...

I would like to show you the statistics of false rape cases but unfortunately, false rape crime cases go underreported in Japan and isn't taken seriously as a crime.

qwertyytrewq wrote:

You're not being contrarian or clever. You're spouting misogynist talking points I've heard ad nauseum. The fact that you feel it's at all appropriate to play at being "contrarian" on this issue shows pretty clearly that you treat the issue of rape and misogyny lightly.

I wouldn't say I treat rape and misogyny lightly, but it could be said that I treat discussions about it lightly, especially on forums that aren't solely created for that topic (this is a Japanese language learning forum).

In any case, your criticisms of Japan is made on the basis that Japan has an arguably unique "rape culture" that leads to the problems, so I thought it would be interesting to challenge that assumption.

Last edited by qwertyytrewq (2013 January 13, 6:16 am)

本音　and 建前 are just concepts that exist in every culture but just happen to have words for them in Japanese. People are more or less the same everywhere.

Living in Japan I can't imagine thinking of it as a "rape culture" unless I had a serious feminist chip on my shoulder. If Japan is a "rape culture" then everywhere could be construed to be. I don't know how people come up with this kind of stuff...

It's not true, though. Another great example besides 残業 is contract law in Japan.

Contract law in the west tends to only happen on one layer. It's seen as appropriate for both parties to refer to the contract in terms of working out a labor dispute. However, contracts in Japan are treated differently in practice. The contract is the 建前 with the actual working conditions and real terms being the undisclosed, but mutually understood, 本音. The employer in the case of the contract is, in practice, expected to hold lots of leeway in terms of things that are outside the contract or even directly against the contract.

In the western system it would be appropriate at that point for the worker to bring up the asymmetry between the actual duties and the stated contract. In Japan this is seen as inappropriate, and you will most certainly be fired, even if it would be in breach of their contract. Japanese employers do feel they have the 本音 right to entirely tear up the contract whenever they feel like no matter what it says, and frequently they get away with doing so thanks to a low likelihood of an employee ever being able to bring a lawsuit.

This paper describes a little bit of the situation, but you have to read it kind of carefully. Laws and regulations in Japan are 建前. Most disputes, even moreso than in other countries, are kept out of the legal system at all costs through the use of either bargaining or coercion.

Japan is known to not be litigious, and the reason Japan is not litigious is because of money that gets tossed around in order to handle private disputes or the wronged party giving up on filing a lawsuit. This money may be tossed around in order to save face, even if there's no legal or official obligation for a person or organization to do so. In the west we would call this extortion, but in Japan it's the way things operate. Victims of crime will frequently not go to the police if they can come to an agreement for apology money paid by the perpetrator themselves, the perpetrator's family, or the perpetrator's employer.

This website talks about some of these issues:
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discu … shida.html

Individual people are very similar everywhere, but cultures as a whole can be and are different. 建前 and 本音 do kind of map on the surface to things that also exist in the west, but the degrees and differences are very striking.

The legal system exists as the 建前, and most disputes that would be handled in a legal fashion outside of Japan tend to be handled through the de facto 本音 customs that exist. Unfortunately, this means that wealth or might tends to make right, and justice in a lot of cases is not well-served. Also because these kinds of disputes happen off the books, it makes Japan's reported crime and litigation statistics unreliable since that's not where most conflict resolution happens in the Japanese system.

Last edited by erlog (2013 January 13, 5:33 pm)

Well, that's interesting. Re: "Japanese rape culture", Am I a misogynist or is the other person a feminist with a "chip on the shoulder"?

Whatever the case, I'll let the thread go to its original core topic as opposed to off topic.

IceCream wrote:

You're a misogynist. It's not the first time you've popped up specifically to make misogynistic comments, it seems to be you who has a chip on your shoulder in this respect. Erlog's right, it's not entertaining.

But is erlog correct that Japan has a rape culture?

Okay.

Pretty much.