Inny Jan wrote:

What can I say, you are right of course.

As for the harder example - what about that one

ぼくはほんをかくにんげんで、ひひょうするにんげんじゃないから、しょひょうってできればやりたくないんだけど、そのときはじじょうがあって、「まあいいや、やりましょう」とひきうけた。

Seems perfectly understandable to me.

Tzadeck wrote:

Well, passive listening does exist though.  I work in a big staff room with maybe 40 people, so I hear them speaking Japanese all day, but I usually am ignoring them.  But then if a student is looking for a teacher or something I can sometimes recall where they went from just having overheard in the background.  I would guess that this type of listening does not reinforce my Japanese as much as more carefully listening to other teachers have a conversation with some interest on my part.

fair enough.

The point I was trying to make is that for the purpose of learning, the passive/active distinction is a lot less relevant than whether or not the content (whatever it is) is actually in some kind of digestible format that meaning can be extracted from.

Using your staff room example, I would say that if you're able to understand to some extent what's going on without having to pay any attention to it that means you're recognising and getting context from what you know already. This kind of 'passive' background listening is good practice that reinforces and deepens what you know. If you knew nothing though, you would probably have little to no clue what is being spoken about and be unable to map new meaning to the sounds you were hearing. In other words you'd learn little to nothing.

so... advice to beginners. Audio is great. The more the better, just realise that while your level is low and audio alone provides little to no context, then you'll learn very little from it irrespective of how much attention you're paying. This is why beginner level audio courses like pimsleur and the like always include english translations in the audio or within supplementary texts. You need to be getting meaning from somewhere.
So if you're a beginner and all you're hearing is "blah blah blah desu blah blah blah watashi blah blah blah," don't expect magical results from audio immersion. Instead focus your time on content in any format that allows you to actually extract meaning from it. Whatever you're doing, ask yourself am I learning new words/phrases from this? If not then maybe it's the wrong content for you.

amillerchip wrote:

Don't spend too long reading endless AJATT debates on the koohii forums. ^_^

Don't spend long reading on forums.

In fact, disconnect your internet for a week and without thinking about it, you'll probably end up spending far more productive hours studying.  ^_^

Agreed. I'm so happy I have almost 3 hours of commute a day, so even though I procrastinate in threads like this I still get lots of reading/listening in

Find something of personal interest in the language you're intending to study. For Japanese language it can anime or manga , or Japanese food, calligraphy, music, movies, martial arts, bonsai, Japanese politics... Anything that will keep you interested in this language even when you find yourself wanting to give it up.

Don't be scared to study off of anime, manga, drama, movies....variety shows...

really it's all the same.

Many people probably won't agree with me but anyway...

- Don't use RTK. It's very ineffective.
- Language learning takes time. Speed records aren't going to help you in the long run.
- Don't hesitate to take a break. Not studying for 1-2 weeks or a month can actually be beneficial.
- It's not the number of words and grammar points that matters, it's how you use them.
- You're neither a child, nor a native.
- Don't write a blog or a post about how you're going to study, just do it.
- Novels aren't a studying tool, they are meant to be read.
- Don't be a self-proclaimed "advanced"/"fluent" speaker. That's not for you to decide.
- Eat/sleep properly and exercise.
- Be self-critical.
- Aim high.

Last edited by Arupan (2013 January 07, 2:40 am)

Zlarp wrote:

Yeah, I do disagree with most of this, but I'm not gonna argue.

It seems like you mostly agree with his post based on that breakdown of +/=/-'s.

For what it's worth I'm in total agreement with what Arupan said. Also, novels are a good method of gaining exposure to the type of language used in fiction, but I wouldn't prioritise them as a primary study material.

Seeing how this thread degenerated from beginner oriented advice into opinion clashing ("Follow this idea" "No, do this"), there's one thing I think could be said: The best way to learn is probably the one that you like the most, the one that will keep you learning.

As for myself, saying that novels etc. aren't studying goes against the core of my own preferred way to acquire Japanese. If I'd had that advice before I started I wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

Zlarp wrote:

As for another beginner advice, here's a video website I was just made aware of with a video of a "let's play" of Inazuma Eleven 2. He's reading it all out loud and is entertaining, so if you're interested in this kind of thing it's a great way to get immersion, kanji reading, and listening practice.

Edit: Forgot the link: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18882494
Edit edit: Another let's play by the same guy I'm following for "I Wanna Be the Boshy" - doesn't give you reading practice, though: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19527184
Edit edit edit so many edits: Another Boshy one, with two people playing this time. A bit more... inept than the first one http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18006382 . Their English will make you feel a bit better about your Japanese.

実況プレイ's are great! You should look up つわはす and セピア. The descriptions of their videos usually have links to part 1 lists, like this http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/15923690

Wait why aren't novels good study tools?
(I'll admit, from the moment I quit textbooks and ran to the loving embrace of native materials I no longer considered what I was doing "studying" but rather "using" ... but maybe that's not what you mean?)

TwoMoreCharacters wrote:

Maybe he just means that you shouldn't slowly study novels objectively, like looking up every word and analyzing the grammar, but rather read them normally.

That's exactly what I meant. Thank you

Arupan wrote:

TwoMoreCharacters wrote:

Maybe he just means that you shouldn't slowly study novels objectively, like looking up every word and analyzing the grammar, but rather read them normally.

That's exactly what I meant. Thank you

Oh yeah of course. Don't think. Goodness never THINK. Never ask WHY. Just do it and it'll make sense later!
But simply saying they're bad for study can be dangerously misleading!

blackbrich wrote:

Learn grammar first. Through examples is the most effective way to me. It makes it much easier to pick up words after that. IMO.

Funny, my experience after a lot of trial and error is the exact opposite. Learn lots of words first (in basic sentences, yes), and then a fair bit of grammar will come automatically with immersion, although I think it helps me a lot to occasionally consult the DBJG to DAJG books to get nuances that I otherwise would have missed.