It seems plausible that it is simply a contraction of ない　（すまない→すまん）, but couldn't it also just be ん added to the imperfective form すま in the same fashion that ます is negated by adding ん to ませ ?

I don't really see the point in the distinction you're trying to draw, but as you yourself quoted lower down, -ません is a contraction of -ませぬ.  ん itself (in the context of negative verbs) is a contraction of ない or ぬ.
Did a speaker attach the contracted form of ぬ/ない to their verb, or did they attach ぬ/ない to their verb and then contract it?  Who knows? Who cares?

This suggests that it has no relation to the ん found above in ません, right?

Yes, but in this case の/ん is a particle, not a noun.

Yet, the polite past negative is ませんでした. Is this really a verb anymore?

Yes.

The examples are both irregular so it's not so apparent at first glance, but it looks like what we have here is their imperfective forms + the attributive (aka dictionary form) of ぬ.

Yes.

So, aren't these old timers just saying すまん instead of すまぬ?

If they're actually saying すまぬ, then they're saying すまぬ.

And, why do we have ませんでした (and not something like ませずた)?

Not sure how you arrived at ませずた, but it's gibberish.

And, there doesn't appear to be a need for ませんです? Is it too redundant in terms of politeness?

Yes, there would be no point in saying ませんです.

Last edited by JimmySeal (2012 December 06, 11:32 pm)

Also, this might be interesting to the OP--in Kansai dialect the s sound often becomes the h/f sound, especially in the combination せん, which becomes へん.  In fact, even in direct form kansai people say 分からへん instead of 分からない.  And the past version of へん？  It's へんかった.  So 分からなかった in Kansai dialect is わからへんかった.

Sometimes Kansai dialect is more regular than standard Japanese.  In standard Japanese the negative form of ある is ない, which seems completely different.  But in Kansai you can say あらへん, which makes ある seem just like a regular verb.  Of course, the negative past tense is あらへんかった.

In Kyoto we have have the polite form of はる, which is like the ます from in standard Japanese.  So the polite form of する is しはる.  The past tense is しはらへん and the negative past is しはらへんかった.

Needless to say, there was a lot I didn't understand when I first moved to Kansai, haha.

JimmySeal wrote:

I'm rather doubtful that this の is the same thing as the nominalizer の, but I'm no linguist.

Yeah, it's usually considered a particle.  I don't really care which it is (the book I original used called it an extended predicate, but I don't remember if it used the word particle or not)--I know what it means and how to use it so it doesn't matter which it is--I'm just saying that I've seen fairly reputable sources call it a noun as well.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2012 December 07, 12:18 am)

Tzadeck wrote:

Also, this might be interesting to the OP--in Kansai dialect the s sound often becomes the h/f sound, especially in the combination せん, which becomes へん.  In fact, even in direct form kansai people say 分からへん instead of 分からない.  And the past version of へん？  It's へんかった.  So 分からなかった in Kansai dialect is わからへんかった.

Cool, I didn't know that that! I just popped over to wikipedia and found this:

"In informal speech, the negative verb ending, which is -nai in standard Japanese, is expressed with -n and -hen, as in ikan and ikahen "not going", which is ikanai in standard Japanese. -N is a transformation of the classical Japanese negative form -nu and is also used for formal speech and idioms in standard Japanese. -Hen is the result of contraction and phonological change of ren'yōkei + wa senu, the emphatic form of -nu."

It's not attributed, so I have no idea which source it is from.

Tzadeck wrote:

Sometimes Kansai dialect is more regular than standard Japanese.  In standard Japanese the negative form of ある is ない, which seems completely different.  But in Kansai you can say あらへん, which makes ある seem just like a regular verb.  Of course, the negative past tense is あらへんかった.

In Kyoto we have have the polite form of はる, which is like the ます from in standard Japanese.  So the polite form of する is しはる.  The past tense is しはらへん and the negative past is しはらへんかった.

Needless to say, there was a lot I didn't understand when I first moved to Kansai, haha.

I can imagine. Nagoya has its peculiarities too, but I find them hard to pick up because they seem to be falling out of use with people around my age (unlike Kansaiben's I suspect). When I've asked friends about something I've heard that was a bit strange sounding, they often admitted that while they understood the meaning, they never used the expression. I guess I'd have to spend more time in izakayas chatting with the local ojisans if I wanted to learn Nagoyaben.

On the other hand, Kansaiben seems to be alive and well. Thanks for the insight!

Ah, ok.  I figured you probably knew, but I think that much merits a mention so as to avoid any misconceptions.

JimmySeal wrote:

Ah, ok.  I figured you probably knew, but I think that much merits a mention so as to avoid any misconceptions.

I wonder how useful it is to know anything about Kyoto-ben if you don't live here, haha.  Osaka-ben makes its way into a lot of media, but you only very rarely see Kyoto-ben used in anything.  Although, I remember that the Ruroni Kenshin OVA (Samurai X in the States) had some Kyoto-ben in it.  And I guess sometimes maiko or geisha characters speak Kyoto-ben.

yudantaiteki wrote:

it doesn't really behave like any other particles and the nominalizer is exactly what the meaning is

I'm not sure what you mean by this. A lot of particles have their own idiosyncratic usages.  In terms of being sandwiched between verbs and the copula (as Oniichan mentioned), a lot of particles are used that way: から、まで、だけ、ばかり、ほど.  It also serves a very similar purpose to particles like　ね、よ、ぞ、かしら、とも, etc. in that it gives a "tone" (for lack of a better word) to the whole sentence.  I think that's rather different from simply nominalizing a verb.

Yeah, I'm just used to thinking about it as the nominalizer because that's how JSL describes it.  There's also a relation with the way that the 連体形 form in classical Japanese can be a noun, or it can act like のだ in modern Japanese.

I'm probably biased as a JSL kid

That's it.  JSL romaji is the same as Nihon-shiki except that it uses "oo" instead of "ou".  I also use the nihon-shiki for the most part when I'm typing, although I use "sh" instead of "sy" and "ji" instead of "zi".

The equivalent of ～はる  is ～なさる, not ～です。