LorenzRas
Member
From: Philippines
Registered: 2010-04-14
Posts: 14
Is it allowed to wear a shirt with an entire list of jouyou kanji?
lardycake
Member
Registered: 2010-11-20
Posts: 174
EasyJapanezy wrote:
lardycake wrote:
Why would you want to cheat? The point is to have an idea of your level, not pretend to be better than you are :\
I agree with the above and also to lardy cake what is that kanji in your profile pic???
It's the most difficult character found in 康熙字典, a Chinese dictionary edited in Qing dynasty. Very few Chinese have seen these characters, not to mention knowing their pronunciation and meaning
It means "Exorcism".
The character has 60 strokes with 11 "components" (prefixes and suffixes). Here is a break down of these components:
sun : stands for yang
moon: stands for yin
rope: stands for relationship, tangling, connected
speech/word: stands for communication
stem: stands for weapon, conflict, fight
senior/ length: power, elder, authority
horse: action, speed
spear: stands for weapon, conflict, fight
heart: motivation, mental, belief
When rope + word + rope + heart come together, it means clinging, relationship and/or love.
When stem + spear come together, it means conflict and war.
With all these components, you can have a mental picture of yin-yang clashes involving mental images and conflict.
Is there any point in spending money and time to take tests to "judge" how "fluent" you are, when there are hundreds of cheaper and more interesting alternatives which require a reasonable standard of Japanese, such as reading a Japanese newspaper, novels, talking to people, being part of a Japanese language online forum relating to a person interest, etc. ? Don't mean to sidetrack the discussion, I just don't really know why people take these tests (unless they have to for work or something).
Because most institutions require a formalized manner of proving proficiency? Universities, workplaces, scholarships, what not. Sure, they could just take your word on it and test your language in an interview, but it would be much quicker to just filter out those who don't have an official statement of their fluency. Goes for any language if you're planning on using it in a professional manner, really =/.
astendra
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2009-07-27
Posts: 350
Yeah, but we weren't talking about native speakers.
Imagine you're applying for a job in a foreign country, and a requirement is being able to speak the local language. There is a standardized test for that, which all qualified applicants should be able to pass. Now, why would they schedule you for an interview to test your language proficiency, when they can just filter out those applicants who lack the relevant certification? Interviews take time, and they're not obliged to give it to you. It's up to you to prove that you meet the qualifications, so a lot of the time, that is how it works.
Do you mind if I ask your opinion of this assessment?
http://japaneselevelup.com/2011/04/24/t … t-to-jlpt/
I get that you don't like the test, but why are you so bent on looking for confirmation on the issue when you could go learn Japanese instead? ;p
I've never tried to get a job in Japan, but I'm pretty sure JLPT1 is required to get a foot in the door at a lot of places, contrary to what the article says.
delta
Banned
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 226
lardycake wrote:
It's the most difficult character found in 康熙字典, a Chinese dictionary edited in Qing dynasty. Very few Chinese have seen these characters, not to mention knowing their pronunciation and meaning.
Actually this kanji is/would be rather easy to learn, except perhaps to write from memory without a mnemonic. If I see this kanji again, I will remember it because it doesn't look like any other characters I'm studying, so it has to be 'that weird one' that means exorcism (which is also a very cool keyword).
Last edited by delta (2012 November 04, 6:29 pm)
Shakunatz
Member
From: 東京
Registered: 2009-08-18
Posts: 97
astendra wrote:
I've never tried to get a job in Japan, but I'm pretty sure JLPT1 is required to get a foot in the door at a lot of places, contrary to what the article says.
As far as I experienced, sometimes it is definitely so.
Unless you're confident you speak fluent Japanese, investing 50$ in a linguistic certification could be a good idea:
-If your major is not Japanese language/literature and if they are used to deal with foreigners*, having N1/2 is going to impress them.
-If the interviewers don't know about JLPT they'll mistake it (as most Japanese ppl do) for the 日本語検定. In such a way, they could unconsciously “trick” themselves into believing you speak a better Japanese than you really do.
-If you speak "regular gaijin Japanese", you have no linguistic certifications and if you happen to do bad at screening tests ....you may** have an hard time finding a job.
N1 won't change everything, but won't harm you either. If a piece of paper might impress them, raising your chance of being hired, even by 1%, why choose not to have it?
JLPT Preparing Books, like this one are meant to improve your reading techniques, so that you can save time during the exam.
You can use those techniques when you read complex Japanese texts after the exam and still getting the same benefits. I can't see how this could harm you or how you could be wasting time.
As long as you're studying Japanese, who cares what are you aiming at 
My 2 cents.
* Even if "Business Japanese" wording is more common at 外国人向け総合説明会, I've seen many companies having a "N1 required" notice stuck somewhere in their booth, to avoid having their booths crowded with random people. Therefore, unless you explain why you love their company in fluent Japanese they're probably going to ignore you. There are just too many people at those events.
**Plenty of people who don't speak a single word of / little Japanese manage to find a job in Japan...but that's another topic.
uisukii wrote:
(unless they have to for work or something).
I should my contentions clearer. As I said earlier in the quote above, if you have to get certification for a job just to get an interview, then you have to get it. My focus was on otherwise. As in aside places which demand this certification before they even look at you (how widespread this is isn't something I have yet to find conclusive evidence to lead me to believe in its necessity, but that's another discussion, I suppose), aside this apparent need; is there any reason to actually spend money on the exam?
That should have been my original post, but I tend to get sidetracked by my own obfuscation and probably came across as hostile. Sorry about that.
（＾＿＾）ー自”自ー（＾＿＾）
On a different note in relation to motivation, there are language efficiency tests designed as a real challenge for native speaking Japanese, as opposed to something aimed at foreigners learning Japanese; surely if any test were motivating, these ones would be a more realistic measure of ability(?).
weirdo
Member
From: california
Registered: 2010-01-14
Posts: 34
Like others have said, JLPT1 alone isn't going to get much across to someone that isn't familiar with foreigners. You'd have to take something that natives take like the 漢検. 2級 being mastery of reading jouyou kanji -and- the proper usages, handwriting/strokes (hane/tome),部首、同音同訓異字、送り仮名、四字熟語、誤字訂正、類義語・対義語、熟語構成, and so on.
Someone that just passed JLPT1 might even struggle with ３級(middle school level) if they haven't bothered with writing much.
Last edited by weirdo (2012 November 05, 1:32 pm)
Javizy
Member
From: England
Registered: 2007-02-16
Posts: 770
Natives don't take 漢検. Kanji hobbyists take 漢検 and you'll probably be lucky to meet one. It may be a tougher test, but as far as the question of motivation and relevance goes, I'm not seeing much difference with N1, except that maybe there'd be even more awkwardly obscure words that you'd have to avoid using within earshot of natives.
If you want to try something that's relevant to Japanese people, センター試験 would be a good pick. Anyone who applied for uni will be able to relate to your efforts to pass it. In fact, the 国語 section is great practice for N1, because the format is quite similar, but with longer texts.
uisukii wrote:
There are similar tests for English in Australia, but I've never heard of a foreigner who had English as their second language ever being requested of this.
This is incredibly hard to believe given the plethora of English certs available and the often meticulous process of CV filtering most companies employ. After the first two incomprehensible illiterates wasted time and money on my HR dept, I'd probably start demanding certs myself.
Last edited by Javizy (2012 November 05, 2:33 pm)
weirdo
Member
From: california
Registered: 2010-01-14
Posts: 34
Javizy wrote:
Natives don't take 漢検. Kanji hobbyists take 漢検 and you'll probably be lucky to meet one.
I'm not sure where you heard that, but that's not true at all. Both my mother and aunt (normal housewives) have taken 漢検2級. Maybe you're thinking of １級 and 隼1級 which are considered enthusiast levels. Middle/Highs-school kids often take 漢検 during 受験 in order to better their chances at getting into the schools and colleges they want to. A lot of people like to put 漢検 certifications on their resume, 2級 probably being the minimum if you want to bother, since it shows to the potential employer that this person is probably competent and not a DQN or stereotypical ゆとり世代. 1級 or 隼１級 would probably impress them.
英検 and 漢検 are probably two of the most famous 資格 I know of.
Last edited by weirdo (2012 November 05, 3:44 pm)
uisukii wrote:
So... when you go for a job in your native language they seek a certificate which states you can conduct yourself to a standard required in the language to perform the role? There are similar tests for English in Australia, but I've never heard of a foreigner who had English as their second language ever being requested of this.
Natives don't need this test, sure, even though they might be less qualified for certain positions regarding their own language (ugh, the horrible native English teachers I've had...)
But yeah? I can't sign up for a MA unless if show them my CPE degree. That's besides my translator's degree which is apparently useless without an internationally approved certificate. And even more so, each area has its own preferred test (IELTS, TOEFL or CAE/CPE) so even if you have one certificate stating you're fluent you may need to pay another 100+$ for another one... Especially with the ridiculous amount of people who are capable of using English and overstate their ability, it would be ridiculous to just take in anyone based on their own claims or waste their time with interviews. Sure, there'll be some places that take you in without a certificate, but they're rare and usually not that well-seen =/. (granted, I didn't need my CPE to get my current job since they have a preliminary test which quite a few people fail due to their English... but's it's a future-less entry-level job).
