vix86 wrote:

Meat also happens to taste good, so there's that issue too.

Meat tastes good to people as a result of how dominant the food group has become in our culture, and how they're taught from day one both by their social environments, and advertising, that they're supposed to eat it, and that it's supposed to taste good. There's nothing intrinsically special about the taste of meat and how our bodies respond to it, as all our bodies really want are the macro-nutrients carbohydrates, fats, and proteins, and the micro-nutrients vitamins and minerals. The body itself doesn't distinguish between plant food and animal food, the name of the game is just nutrients.

It's amazing how malleable tastebuds are. If we're used to the American diet of ridiculous amounts of salt in everything, then when things aren't salted they taste bland, and we become so desensitized to the taste of salt. But after a few months of eating normal levels, you try eating something super salty like fast food, and your tastebuds kinda' go into shock thinking, "HOLY CRAP that's a lot of salt." Same thing for how people who eat artificial flavors more than real flavors become super in tune with the taste of a real strawberry after they stop eating just artificial strawberry flavors. And same thing for meat. At first I thought it'd be impossible to live without meat, since it was so ingrained in my food habits, but after my tastebuds readjusted I'd look at meat and think, "meh"

But most people aren't too keen on change, so the problem is getting people willing to even let their tastebuds readjust.

Irixmark wrote:

In the case of whaling, it would be better and cheaper to just pay the former whalers to do nothing, because whale meat is so unpopular that it is sitting unsold in government freezers in Japan (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120614a7.html). Not to mention the damage to Japan's image abroad. I've met people who wouldn't buy Japanese products because of the whaling issue.

I got caught up in the factory farming discussion, so forgot to reply about the whaling.

It boggles the mind how stupid the whole situation is. Whaling is losing Japan money, there's really no demand for it, the majority of Japanese even think it's messed up, and it flings mud on our image abroad. With the popularity of shows like Whale Wars in the US, and The Cove winning an Oscar, so many people look down on Japanese as barbarians for the whaling industry. I've encountered it personally tons of times in California, even if most people just jokingly mention it, like one of my friends saying, "Don't whip out the chopsticks, I can see your mouth watering" when there was a whale calendar in her house. Even in Japanese classrooms I see students make fun of the whaling industry a lot. If people who love Japan enough to study the language and culture year after year think it's messed up, I can just imagine what the average person thinks of Japan's whaling.

What's particularly sad is that even with most Japanese people being against it and not eating whale meat, the only real opposition is from international organizations. Animal welfare in Japan doesn't exist in the way that it does in the west. There's no Japanese version of PETA, or Humane Society, or Sea Shepherd to launch campaigns and put pressure on the industry and local governments. Disheartening to think that activists abroad are willing to fly halfway across the world and stand at the dolphin slaughter cove in Taiji, but Japanese citizens do barely anything against it.

nadiatims wrote:

Aijin, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on Japan's heavily protected agricultural sector. Because it's not just whaling that is losing Japan money. Pretty much its whole agricultural sector is, and this state is allowed to continue because of the political power of agricultural groups. All of Japan's food bills may well be twice as high (or more) what they really could be.

I have a secret desire that with the DPJ wanting to put Japan into the TPP that it'll fracture the entire agricultural sector. Because part of the TPP agreement is removing tarrifs, and Japan's tariff on imported rice is astronomical.

Hi Aijin,

I started coming to this forum at the beginning of the year because my New Year's Resolution was to finally learn Japanese. Around that time I saw your thread about the milk industry. When I first read your posts I had a knee jerk reaction of thinking that you're a stupid hippy, lol. Because it really threatened my world view. Before moving to NYC I grew up on a ranch near San Antonio where we had meat for breakfast, brunch, lunch, dinner, and midnight snacks. "Vegetarian" was pretty much some strange foreign language word to me, lol. Harder to understand than a 四字熟語. Buuuuuuut, the more I followed that thread the more my grumbling and sneering faded away, and eventually I started thinking about the topic for the first time in my life.

A couple months after mulling on the idea in the back of my head I started doing some research online. One thing lead to the next, and eventually I decided there was something to it. After hearing Ellen DeGeneres talk about veganism on her show, I mustered up the courage to stick my toes in the water by trying Meatless Monday. I thought it would be jigoku, but was really surprised to find how easy it was to just replace my hotdogs with Tofurkey dogs, and my hamburgers with Garden Burgers. A few more months later I decided to try full vegetarian. That's when I first started noticing my health was improving. I've only been vegetarian since late July, and in these past four months my diabetes has come under control, I've gone from 186 lbs to 132 lbs, and went from very low self esteem and mild depression to loving the way I look and feel.

So the reason I finally registered to post is because I wanted to say THANK YOU! A lot of different sources on vegetarianism are what made me give it a try, but it was your posts that got the ball rolling for me. My other reason for posting is because I wanted to ask you for tips on going full vegan. I think I'm ready to start making the change but don't know how. Meat was way easier to give up than cheese is going to be, lol.

Francesca2207 wrote:

Hi Aijin,
So the reason I finally registered to post is because I wanted to say THANK YOU! A lot of different sources on vegetarianism are what made me give it a try, but it was your posts that got the ball rolling for me. My other reason for posting is because I wanted to ask you for tips on going full vegan.

Wow, this made my day Really happy for you that vegetarianism has benefited your life so much. Going vegan is a cinch so long as you've made up your mind and are dedicated to it, but if going cold tofurky seems like too much then just ease into it and replace one product at a time. For example, switch out cow's milk with a plant-based milk like soy or rice at first, then switch dairy yogurt to non-dairy yogurt, and icecream with one made from coconut milk or soy milk etc. Butter is the easiest thing to switch by far, because Earth Balance tastes a lot better than normal butter and is way healthier.

If you're in NYC then you'll have no problems eating out either, 'cause NYC is pretty much the vegan capital of the world. There are vegan bakeries, vegan ice cream parlors, and literally dozens of restaurants, including Michelin-starred ones if you like fine dining.

You can find a lot of tips under the "Making the Switch" section at http://chooseveg.com

Francesca2207 wrote:

My sister and a few friends tease me about not eating meat and I need a short video to explain the truth of the meat industry to them so they understand where I am coming from.

PETA's "Meet Your Meat" video tends to have a strong emotional effect on people.

Last edited by vileru (2012 November 29, 12:18 am)

Yep, any change is a piece of cake once you've set your mind on doing it

PETA's "Meet Your Meat" is definitely a famous one. "Farm to Fridge" by Mercy for Animals is a very powerful video too, I cried the first time I watched it. If you want to give people an overview of veganism, this speech at a college by activist Gary Yourofsky is awesome, but it is long so I'd only show it if they're sincerely interested. The most life changing film I've seen on animal exploitation is Earthlings, if that doesn't change someone I don't think anything can.

Vegan cheese is tricky, like you said it usually only tastes good when melted onto something or combined with other flavors like on sandwiches. That's how all the vegan cheese in mainstream grocery stores is, but there is actually an incredible vegan cheese company called Dr. Cow, which makes artisan cheeses out of nuts and spices, and ages them like normal fine cheeses. You can eat it by itself, put it on crackers, smear it like cream cheese, anything you want. You're lucky to live in NY, because I think that's where their company is. It's much harder to find their products in other states, so I have to order it online. The aged cashew nut cheese is my favorite, tastes so good

Unfortunately cruelty is more profitable than compassion. The inhumane conditions in factory farms are the product of corporations seeking to maximize their profits. It's simply more cost effective to imprison sows in gestation crates, cram birds so tightly together that their living space is smaller than our iPads, rape cows with artificial insemination then rip away the newborns over and over again, and genetically engineer turkeys and chickens so that they grow more meat faster, even though it cripples their bodies and gives them organ failure. Giving larger living spaces, access to the outdoors, sanitary conditions, veterinary care for their wounds infections and diseases, or ensuring that employees don't physically abuse them, costs money, and corporations don't want to spend money. After all, to the corporations the animals are nothing more than inanimate objects on their production line.

It took thousands of years and countless sacrifices for us to bring an end to slavery ... and that was our OWN species! So I can't imagine how long it will take before animal cruelty is no longer the norm, since history shows us that people almost always choose cruelty over compassion when there's an economic incentive.

Aijin wrote:

It took thousands of years and countless sacrifices for us to bring an end to slavery

Slavery still exists and most slaves are children. Sexual slavery of women and children is happening in almost every country in the world.

I watched the first 10 minutes of Earthlings, but it seems to be based on logical fallacy to me. Speciesism (ie one species is better than another) is equated to Racism and Sexism- that we should not continue to harm/eat animals because might does not make right, and animals should be given equivalent standing to humans (at least when it comes to causing them harm).

Why should we give equal standing to animals, if animals do not give equal standing to other animals? That is, animals eat each other constantly as part of the circle of life, why should we not participate? Some people would make the argument that because we have advanced cognitive processes, we should not participate and instead rise above the "circle of life" and choose to be vegetarians or vegans.

If animals cannot make that same choice because it is their nature, then why should they be given equal standing with humans? One could then argue in the other direction as well- if animals are given equal standing to humans, shouldn't they have additional rights? How can we harvest crops when we know that combines kill millions of animals each year? If it is not ok to ethically raise and consume animals, then surely it is not ethical to run over them with a combine? If animals (and insects, fish, etc) are our equals, then we have to take the consequences that come with that acceptance. I do not think it is possible without decimating the human population.

I'm not a huge meat eater- I eat a diet heavy in vegetables and grains, but I do eat meat. I try as much as possible to buy organics/ethically treated meat, but I do not subscribe to the moral argument that the film is making. I limit my meat intake because it is healthier and better for the environment.

Last edited by captal (2012 November 30, 3:58 pm)

Yeah, vegetarianism isn't "the healthy choice". As I tried to point out earlier in this thread, people become healther/drop weight when they start improving upon the standard diet and adding exercise, none of which really has anything to do with vegetarianism. You see it all the time with these other diets - Zone, low carb, paleo, whatever you want - but they succeed mainly by drawing better lines in the sand for the wrong reasons.

As it stands, eating meat is more convenient if you want to achieve good health, for a variety of reasons. Doesn't mean it justifies the current meat industry, but what are we supposed to actually do about it (on a large scale) short of wait for in vitro? Try to convince everyone to become religiously vegan? Yeah, not gonna happen.

nadiatims wrote:

and also subsidise their higher healthcare costs from the various illnesses they are more likely to suffer. It's only a matter of time before health insurance companies catch up to the fact that vegetarians offer a better insurance risk (reduced risk of cancer and all sorts of chronic illnesses).

If/When that happens, people are more likely to support the candidates that will institute a true single player/universal health care system.

If you are genuinely worried about people's health, then really the best option is a UHC system since as the system strains from worse health due to diet; the govt. will be encouraged to put pressure on encouraging better diets (Ad campaigns, incentive programs, laws [ie: healthier school lunches]). This is becoming more obvious just in simple health care. Take poor people with no health insurance coverage. Studies have shown that lack of health insurance and a "reactive" style to health problems, actually drives up health costs for the entire system. This was the biggest motivating factor for Obama trying for a single player system and health care reform.

Why anyone would think having a system where a company is interested in trying to pay out as little as possible for health coverage while charging large premiums; is a great idea, I will never know. (Anecdotal evidence supports this strongly. The best health insurance I have ever seen have all been government run.)

If people were forced to shoulder the full costs of their diet choices, I am certain there would be higher adoption of vegetarianism, just has as generally been the case historically (ie. poor people eat less meat).

I'm more certain that, if people were "forced" to eat nothing but veggies because thats all their income would allow them to buy, that people would simply vote out the libertarian tard that made it into office. Either that or riot. Because likely if they are being forced to eat nothing but veggies due to a laissez-faire state, then its pretty likely they are suffering under other horrific austere-like conditions brought on by the 'free market.'