How to learn Cursive Script? 草書, etc...

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HououinKyouma Member
From: USA Registered: 2012-06-27 Posts: 47

Aside from taking a calligraphy class, are there any online resources that explain cursive writing? For example, how are the stokes simplified, etc. Which strokes are allowed to run together and which must be separate? I thought it would be a cool thing to look into, but haven't had much luck as with either Japanese or English google. Any resources, semi-cursive or cursive, would be appreciated!

comeauch Member
From: Canada Registered: 2011-11-04 Posts: 175

I wish I knew some... I've found a couple (like this one: http://www.zebra.co.jp/handwriting/kaki … index.html) by looking at similar threads on the forum. It's actually well done and teaches general principles... but yeah, not as detailed as we're probably both wishing for! (and no Grass!)

PotbellyPig Member
From: New York Registered: 2012-01-29 Posts: 337

Take a look at this workbook: http://shop.whiterabbitjapan.com/japane … IawebR9l00  It sounds like what you are looking for.  There are some sample pages from the book on that webpage.

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HououinKyouma Member
From: USA Registered: 2012-06-27 Posts: 47

Great find on that website! At least its a starting place! I did some experimenting in class trying to make my handwriting 'flow' but it was a miserable failure. Everything I did to emulate cursive or even semi-cursive ended up turning into scribbles. However, the website still leaves me wondering what to do with complex (kanji-wise) words like 秘密. Are there rules of thumb regarding which lines you can connect and which to leave separate? Or must one learn each kanji's cursive equivalent separately? I would assume it's not the last one, but from some of the stuff I've looked at, it sure seems that way.

I will also have to see about getting that book; although it's only semi-cursive, that's step up from the block-like printing or whatever I am limited to.

PotbellyPig Member
From: New York Registered: 2012-01-29 Posts: 337

You can also search for penji (in Japanese, I'm on my mac and don't have it set up for Japanese) on Amazon Japan.  There are tons of books on beautifying your handwriting there.  There's also a reference book on kanji on that White Rabbit Express site http://shop.whiterabbitjapan.com/japane … IcQ1rR9l00 which shows all the different forms of writing a kanji.  That may be what you are looking for.

comeauch Member
From: Canada Registered: 2011-11-04 Posts: 175

An other approach would be to buy/use a dictionary like this one http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%A5%B7%E8%A1 … im_sbs_b_1

Or maybe finding a grass font. I've searched a bit for "sousho" fonts (草書), but it didn't give me much results. So I went for the Chinese version and found a couple here: http://www.fontke.com/font/languages/ch … ge_1.shtml
I've tried most of them and many have the kana as well!

Also, there's this one... Probably the best I've found. Comes in three "short-hand" levels... The "shortest" one is gonna blow. your. mind.
http://opentype.jp/kouzansousho.htm

Finally, I found this website that shows about 1000 kanjis in their Grass form (http://www013.upp.so-net.ne.jp/santai/santai.htm) It seem to correspond well with the kouzansousho font, so I suppose they're both good. Btw, have you seen how they abbreviate the whole "gate" primitive? http://www013.upp.so-net.ne.jp/santai/jpg/0926.jpg Ain't nobody got time for writing gates! XD

Last edited by comeauch (2012 October 23, 6:39 pm)

tguk911 Member
Registered: 2012-09-17 Posts: 21

I've been looking all over on this subject also and also japanese calligraphy and am probably going to purchase the renshu-cho books on whiterabbitexpress that potbellypig suggested but I also found a couple sites which may or may not help.
This site has mostly japanese calligraphy but there are some gyosho and sosho examples with stroke order which might help.
http://www.japanesecalligrapher.com/
Also this calligraphy site has videos with a couple gyosho and sosho examples http://nikkosart.com/lessons.asp
Also I found this book that was already sold on ebay and I can't seem to locate another copy
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Semi-cursive-st … 0582078479
Hope this helps a little.

Last edited by tguk911 (2012 October 24, 3:11 pm)

HououinKyouma Member
From: USA Registered: 2012-06-27 Posts: 47

Holy Crap! I can't even recognize anything on the opentype.jp page! Cool font though!

Everyone's suggested great resources, but I'm wondering about something. Should I just buy one of the dictionaries that show the different forms and try to emulate the kanji in them? Or is there a sort of technique. I was thinking something like a systematic approach like RTK. Ie, this is how the 'sun' radical looks when written in 草書. Something like a set of stroke order diagrams in this manner would be nice, one that just showed each of the radicals. Although I guess one can just pick up a dictionary and find the individual parts... I still think its difficult to pick up the flow of the characters from the pictures themselves, sort of like how you cant know the stroke order of a kanji just from looking at it (w/o prior knowledge.)

japanesecalligrapher would be so much more helpful if you could search by kanji! Also, it doesn't look to be cursive or semicursive, just regular printed characters... ;(

Also, in http://nikkosart.com/lessons.asp, the first cursive tutorial shows 書 in 楷書 and then shows two scribbles and calls it 草書... Is it seriously simplified that much!? I can see how the 草書 version of 美 works, but the 書 one?

Last edited by HououinKyouma (2012 October 24, 5:24 pm)

bertoni Member
From: Mountain View, CA, USA Registered: 2009-11-08 Posts: 291

In my opinion, there's very little point in learning the cursive calligraphy scripts unless you want to study in that field.  The grass hand can be very difficult to read, even for experts, and sometimes, no one's quite sure.  The little booklet at White Rabbit Press on handwritten Japanese might be useful, though.

Reply #10 - 2012 October 24, 7:01 pm
kitakitsune Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2008-10-19 Posts: 1006

I love going to museums with my wife. We always find some Chinese poem or famous person's letter written in cursive and more often than not we can never identify a single character...

Reply #11 - 2012 October 24, 7:19 pm
HououinKyouma Member
From: USA Registered: 2012-06-27 Posts: 47

I know that practicality wise, 草書 is useless. I just thought it would be a fun application of the Japanese I've already learned. What about semi-cursive though? I am just as interested in learning 行書, if not more because it can actually speed up your writing while maintaining legibility. However, I can't find any resources on that either!

Reply #12 - 2012 October 24, 7:34 pm
kitakitsune Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2008-10-19 Posts: 1006

A lot of semi cursive just develops naturally after years and years of writing.

Reply #13 - 2012 October 24, 8:09 pm
HououinKyouma Member
From: USA Registered: 2012-06-27 Posts: 47

I found one useful website that seems pretty thorough. It doesn't seem to specifically address 草書 or 行書, but it does a good job of teaching basic 書道. I haven't had time to look at it fully though, but it has everything from how to fine-tune hiragana to posture. If you're into 書道, check it out. It's in Japanese though.

http://cert.shinshu-u.ac.jp/gp/el/e06e1/class0.html

Last edited by HououinKyouma (2012 October 24, 8:35 pm)

Reply #14 - 2012 October 24, 8:38 pm
yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

kitakitsune wrote:

A lot of semi cursive just develops naturally after years and years of writing.

I think this is true for native Japanese who also get to see a lot of cursive, but I'm not sure it's true for foreigners.  I've been told by several native speakers that the shortcuts I've developed on my own look strange.

rich_f Member
From: north carolina Registered: 2007-07-12 Posts: 1708

If you want to learn 草書, then you first need to learn 楷書 and 行書. It makes a big difference if you understand *why* they look like that by learning how to write to more "legible" forms, and get good at writing all kinds of characters in a flowing motion. That flowing motion is really important for good 草書, and that only really comes from a LOT of practice and a LOT of familiarity with the brush and the characters.

You don't necessarily have to find a Japanese 書道 teacher, although it helps, you can also do just fine learning from someone who's well versed in Chinese calligraphy, too. Just pick up the kana later on. (And that's really yet another skill to learn, too...)

I got a lot more out of learning from someone who's done it for 30+ years vs. trying to figure it out from a book. And when I found a Japanese teacher to teach me kana-based calligraphy (which has its own unique cursive style), I also found someone who's a great conversation partner-- she teaches in Japanese, so I work on 2 skills at the same time. It can really be an invaluable experience that way.

Right now, she's teaching me 江戸文字. Why? Because it's fun.

EDIT: Books have their uses, too, but having a real teacher to ask questions saves a lot of time.

Last edited by rich_f (2012 October 24, 10:33 pm)

uisukii Guest

yudantaiteki wrote:

kitakitsune wrote:

A lot of semi cursive just develops naturally after years and years of writing.

I think this is true for native Japanese who also get to see a lot of cursive, but I'm not sure it's true for foreigners.  I've been told by several native speakers that the shortcuts I've developed on my own look strange.

I don't mean to sound rude, but why would it be any different for a foreigner? If "lot of semi cursive just develops naturally after years and years of writing", then wouldn't the same also occur for a foreigner doing the same thing? It is of a minor personal interest as I've noticed at least over studying RtK, along with the thousands of kanji I've written out over the past few weeks that often some of the heavily repeated elements take on a slightly more cursive form.


Though I am probably confusing true cursive with the beginnings of sloppy handwriting.

yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

uisukii wrote:

yudantaiteki wrote:

kitakitsune wrote:

A lot of semi cursive just develops naturally after years and years of writing.

I think this is true for native Japanese who also get to see a lot of cursive, but I'm not sure it's true for foreigners.  I've been told by several native speakers that the shortcuts I've developed on my own look strange.

I don't mean to sound rude, but why would it be any different for a foreigner?

Mostly because foreigners don't see cursive, study it, or have much cause to write it themselves.  Also the stroke orders are often wrong, which can affect cursive as well.

Javizy Member
From: England Registered: 2007-02-16 Posts: 770

If you search for つづけ字 on Amazon.jp, that White Rabbit Press one comes up along with a bunch of others. I was just talking to my g/f today about how I essentially can't write in practical terms because I don't know shorthand. I'll probably check one of those books out.

uisukii Guest

yudantaiteki wrote:

uisukii wrote:

yudantaiteki wrote:


I think this is true for native Japanese who also get to see a lot of cursive, but I'm not sure it's true for foreigners.  I've been told by several native speakers that the shortcuts I've developed on my own look strange.

I don't mean to sound rude, but why would it be any different for a foreigner?

Mostly because foreigners don't see cursive, study it, or have much cause to write it themselves.  Also the stroke orders are often wrong, which can affect cursive as well.

Okay, I see what you mean. Fair enough- hard to replicate the environment suited to cursive adaptation.

srunni Member
Registered: 2010-07-05 Posts: 16

Hi,

If you're interested in kuzushiji, check out my blog, Kakekotoba. I'm working on two classical texts, from the kuzushiji versions.

Thanks!

yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

Of course, that's classical calligraphy -- it's a bit different from how normal Japanese would handwrite their notes in the 21st century.  I'm not sure exactly which one the original poster was talking about but probably the latter.

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