cae99v
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From: philadelphia
Registered: 2007-09-22
Posts: 44
Website
So i was thinking,since babies learn how to speak long before they can read, i wonder if it would make more sense to learn vocabulary through speaking like babies do, then learn to read and write using the vocab you have as a foundation?
This is basically how Pimsleur works. I know several people who have used it for Italian and Japanese, and found it effective. Here's a recent article from Tofugu discussing its merits, along with a discussion of the difficulties in grokking everyday speech at normal tempo:
http://www.tofugu.com/2012/10/17/langua … king-fast/
Personally, I'd rather learn writing as well, so that I can get as much exposure as possible. I find it easier to tackle audio content by training my ear with transcripts. Like anpan said in the linked thread, we're not kids, and we shouldn't attempt to learn like them.
Last edited by gaiaslastlaugh (2012 October 21, 11:41 am)
Aikynaro
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2012-07-26
Posts: 266
I don't think learning like babies do is a good method (because it's impossible), but I'm also thinking that learning kanji first isn't that great either for me at least. I tried that and it sucked, because I wasn't making any progress in learning Japanese, just kanji, and knowing kanji without knowing Japanese is absolutely worthless. Even if you know them you still can't read - you need to know the actual words for that.
Being able to read with furigana is sufficient for a beginner. All of the interesting stuff at a beginner's reading level is going to be full of furigana anyway. Pumping your head full of kanji you have no present use for doesn't make sense to me - the study time could be better spent learning vocabulary that I can start using right away. Instant gratification is a good motivator!
Aikynaro
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2012-07-26
Posts: 266
I know that word and can recognise the kanji, because I've run into it in context many times. Finding things to read with furigana is pretty trivial, as the large stack of 105円 manga growing around my desk shows.
And I'm not saying 'don't study kanji', but studying kanji all upfront before learning a decent amount of Japanese seems completely assbackwards to me unless you're the sort of superdedicated person who can blast through it in, say, a month or less.
My thoughts on this are still evolving, but I started out following AJATT's advice of going through RTK before starting to learn anything else. I'm really starting to think this is terrible advice if you're trying to learn immersively at all - you need to know what the stuff you're hearing means as quickly as possible for it to be useful comprehensible input. Learning the kanji can wait - they're not going anywhere, and studying them in any serious dedicated way takes up massive amounts of time.
needos
New member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2011-11-18
Posts: 4
I only started learning Japanese this time last year, and started on kanji after a couple of weeks. Although I soon learnt the kanji for many words, I had no idea of the pronunciation because I hadn't met that word in my other studies yet.
I found it much easier getting a few months of vocab behind me, then starting on the kanji again, it's almost as if now I have something to 'hook' the kanji on to, it's helped me no end.
Taishi
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2009-04-24
Posts: 127
I agree that there's really no point to do all of RTK's ~2000 characters before learning vocab. But if you're gonna learn しょくよう why not learn 食用 as it will make it gradually easier to learn words containing those characters in the future. Sure if you encounter 蠢く or 伽藍 or even a word containing 畝 (which is actually part of RTK1) feel absolutely free to postpone/skip those characters as they're not very frequent, but both 食 and 用 are very common characters.
I believe that learning characters beside vocabulary while simultaneously considering frequency (of the characters) is a good idea, since otherwise you're very likely to be overwhelmed in the beginning. I think it lets you enjoy vocab early while not leaving you 'kanjily' handicapped for long.
Last edited by Taishi (2012 October 22, 8:37 am)
Zlarp
Member
Registered: 2012-10-26
Posts: 124
If you're learning by textbook, that's fine.
I am trying to learn Japanese the way I learned English - by being on the internet and just reading and reading and reading. - Everywhere, especially video games.
Now, I tried that at first and the Kanji became such a jumbled mess, it's not even funny. There was no way I was going to make it through a manga page for example without pulling my hair out.
So I did RTK. Because I was so frustrated with not being able to read, I pushed through it in three weeks. Now I can read manga without being frustrated anymore. It's still a bit of a slow plod and I have to look things up often, but the difference is that now it's fast enough to be fun.
Though honestly, I'm still a bit frustrated, so now I'm plowing through Tae Kim, which pretty much is clearing up all the questions I've been having. (Oh damned be you, you particles!)
Then all that's left is to enjoy myself and get the vocab in, which is the fun part 
dtcamero
Member
From: new york
Registered: 2010-05-15
Posts: 653
Aikynaro wrote:
My thoughts on this are still evolving, but I started out following AJATT's advice of going through RTK before starting to learn anything else. I'm really starting to think this is terrible advice if you're trying to learn immersively at all - you need to know what the stuff you're hearing means as quickly as possible for it to be useful comprehensible input. Learning the kanji can wait - they're not going anywhere, and studying them in any serious dedicated way takes up massive amounts of time.
If you just want to stick your toe into the language and play around a bit/learn some travel phrases, then yes it doesn't make sense. The rtk first advice is for people that want to go full bore for reading listening talking writing ability in the shortest time possible. For those goals, doing rtk first is a very efficient idea.
Yes in the beginning you don't know any Japanese, but even if you did you would suck really really hard... So if your goal is full comprehension, what difference does it make in determining how specifically you are choosing to suck during that very early period. Once you have been doing this for a few years, knowing the characters makes vocab acquisition trivial relative to other non-ideographic languages... and vocab becomes at least 1/2 of the language project after the first year.
Last edited by dtcamero (2012 November 15, 5:00 am)
raeesmerelda
Member
From: PA
Registered: 2010-07-30
Posts: 38
Personally, I've found that if I know vocabulary for a particular kanji I want to study, it helps it stick.
For example, if I've already heard じゅんび a bunch of times, and know what it means, and then I run into either kanji of 準備, it's going to help. Even if I'm only trying to work on 準, I've got at least one word now to connect it to, and when I later find 備, I'll have both the vocabulary and the other half, leaving less work.
Having the kanji alone (THIS HERE THINGY MEANS PREPARATION!) is all well and good, but it's too close to rote memorization for me (and my memory for that is terrible), even with breaking it down into components. It's kind of like sorting a jigsaw puzzle into color, texture, or edge groups, so you have some vague idea where it belongs, but having that vocabulary word you already knew associated with it actually puts a few pieces together.
Aikynaro
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2012-07-26
Posts: 266
dtcamero wrote:
Yes in the beginning you don't know any Japanese, but even if you did you would suck really really hard... So if your goal is full comprehension, what difference does it make in determining how specifically you are choosing to suck during that very early period. Once you have been doing this for a few years, knowing the characters makes vocab acquisition trivial relative to other non-ideographic languages... and vocab becomes at least 1/2 of the language project after the first year.
But it does matter what aspect you suck at in the beginning. Of course, it depends on how you're studying and what your situation is though. If indeed all you do in the beginning is study kanji then move on to other textbooks and such then yeah, it's not going to matter if you don't do anything else for however long while you get your kanji down. If you're taking an immersive strategy or, y'know - live here - then yes, it matters a lot. I need to understand what's being said around me and be able to communicate (even in a really really sucky way) now. Learning kanji before anything else absolutely does not help this. In my circumstances, it's extremely inefficient because it means more time spent not understanding the Japanese around me.
And - you can be serious about learning Japanese while not being able to stomach months of exclusive kanji study before being able to do anything interesting in Japanese.
Personally, I've found that if I know vocabulary for a particular kanji I want to study, it helps it stick.
Also, this.
Last edited by Aikynaro (2012 November 15, 9:13 pm)
I did some audio courses whilst doing RTK (Michael Thomas) and likewise did some kana only vocab from the beginning of Genki before tackling Core2k.
I do core2k in recognition kanji -> kana/english and I found I my recognition of the words I learnt from audio and genki are better than those I have no background knowledge of. But still, RTK has the same effect on vocab as I can recognise the kanji.
And - you can be serious about learning Japanese while not being able to stomach months of exclusive kanji study before being able to do anything interesting in Japanese.
This is why I diteched RTK after 500+ kanji and did the first step of RTK lite based on NukeMarines guide (~800 kanji for me). With RTK I felt I wasn't really learning Japanese and I wouldn't for another 2/3 months. RTK lite let me move on to vocab/grammar within weeks, and I am much happier from the change.
). When I was done with RtK, I also had 1100 vocab sentences in my anki deck.