The Qing dynasty considered the northern frontier of Taiwan to be the city of Keelung and there was nothing ever listed to the East of Taiwan except for Okinawa, which was independent.

Baby steps ...

That might lead to WW3. It's like they are purposely sending every one of their neighbors into the arms of the US...

I'm so glad they included both of these clauses in the Treaty of Taipei:

Article 11

    Unless otherwise provided for in the present Treaty and the documents supplementary thereto, any problem arising between the Republic of China and Japan as a result of the existence of a state of war shall be settled in accordance with the relevant provisions of the San Francisco Treaty.

Article 12

Any dispute that may arise out of the interpretation or application of the present Treaty shall be settled by negotiation or other pacific means.

So, if China OR Japan tries anything serious, they are breaking the treaty.

Yeah, China does have ridiculous claims to lots of places... where things can be determined by 20th-21st Century law they really should, i think, regardless of any prior history. Where they can't, or the law wasn't airtight, things get much more awkward...

then... that's really problematic again. Did anything supercede it? Why were Japan allowed to cancel it?!?!

Has it been pointed out that the behavior/mentality of the Anti-Japanese Chinese protesters are very similar to the Muslims protesting against the recent Islam video?

Because I see people saying the rocks are owned by Japan while other people are saying the rocks are owned by China, and plenty of to-and-fro.

However, there has been very little debate about the Chinese protesters in general by Chinese people themselves. Is this a tacit acknowledgement that the behavior of the Chinese protesters is unacceptable? I think this is interesting because Chinese people loathe to criticize themselves. Then again, moderate muslims don't seem to be criticizing the more extreme ones so I guess China isn't unique in that regard.

For example, I don't see any Chinese person on the Internet saying things like "stop criticizing the Chinese protesters!"

Last edited by qwertyytrewq (2012 September 22, 4:47 am)

Apparently it's a longstanding tradition going back to the first Secretary of State for the US to not take sides in international territorial disputes.

Not that the US hasn't done it before and there is the whole contradictory nature of saying that you are neutral on the dispute but will go to war in Japan's defense if China does anything hostile...

I personally believe that they are the 尖閣諸島 of Japan and find kitakitsune's points very accurate and amazing. I would like to hear more about his opinion concerning 独島・竹島. I personally think it's the latter, but my Korean friends say its tokto. I don't like what these disputes are doing to relations in the region. I think all this fighting is doing much more harm than good for the better of Asian society. I mean, look what the protests have already begun to do to flights going to China from Japan. They've been significantly cut down. That hurts Chinese merchants that sell those products and also the producers in Japan. I don't see how this is a win-win for China. I am getting kind of sick of all the fake and incredibly violent protests. My Korean friend agrees with me that the Senkaku islands are Japan's and that the violence is just horrible.

Surreal wrote:

Actually you are wrong about moderate muslims(even giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming that you are talking about only muslims linked to the Middle East, as anything else would be painfully ignorant), for example http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/21/world … homepage-t http://www.islamist.com/index.php/world … r-in-libya

I wrote my post before I read about this very recent development. Nice to see that this exception has finally broken the rule. Good on them moderates.

Surreal wrote:

I don't really understand your last statement as it contradicts your general argument, ie that Chinese would not take kindly to self-criticism or engage in it at all.

I should have specified but I'm mainly talking about what I have observed from online Chinese people commenting on China-related blogs such as Peking Duck (http://www.pekingduck.org/) where a few of the people there are staunchly pro-China and completely unwilling to acknowledge their own flaws while mainly using the "Tu quoque" fallacy (one of many fallacies). At best, they are biased. At worst, they encourage genocide. Such examples of regular posters include "t_co" and "By The Clock"

As for Hidden Harmonies, the blog which IceCream has linked to in this thread, you don't have to read far to see it's the usual non-impartial pro-China stance (anti Western media, pro-China-owns-rocks, "freedom/democracy isn't great") ignoring anything that hurts its cause (the success of China).

See for yourself. Spend a few minutes on the Peking Duck blog and a few minutes on the Hidden Harmonies blog. Unless you are already pro-China/anti-Japan/anti-West or anti-China/pro-Japan/pro-West, you tell me which blog makes a better attempt at being impartial and considering all sides to a story.

If you want to have more fun, then read the comments section of the blog articles and tell me which "side" makes the more convincing arguments using logic and rationality, with minimal use of logical fallacies (keep an eye out for Tu quoque).

Sorry for the rant but pro-China nationalists is a pet hate of mine.

qwertyytrewq wrote:

Surreal wrote:

Actually you are wrong about moderate muslims(even giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming that you are talking about only muslims linked to the Middle East, as anything else would be painfully ignorant), for example http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/21/world … homepage-t http://www.islamist.com/index.php/world … r-in-libya

I wrote my post before I read about this very recent development. Nice to see that this exception has finally broken the rule. Good on them moderates.

Surreal wrote:

I don't really understand your last statement as it contradicts your general argument, ie that Chinese would not take kindly to self-criticism or engage in it at all.

I should have specified but I'm mainly talking about what I have observed from online Chinese people commenting on China-related blogs such as Peking Duck (http://www.pekingduck.org/) where a few of the people there are staunchly pro-China and completely unwilling to acknowledge their own flaws while mainly using the "Tu quoque" fallacy (one of many fallacies). At best, they are biased. At worst, they encourage genocide. Such examples of regular posters include "t_co" and "By The Clock"

As for Hidden Harmonies, the blog which IceCream has linked to in this thread, you don't have to read far to see it's the usual non-impartial pro-China stance (anti Western media, pro-China-owns-rocks, "freedom/democracy isn't great") ignoring anything that hurts its cause (the success of China).

See for yourself. Spend a few minutes on the Peking Duck blog and a few minutes on the Hidden Harmonies blog. Unless you are already pro-China/anti-Japan/anti-West or anti-China/pro-Japan/pro-West, you tell me which blog makes a better attempt at being impartial and considering all sides to a story.

If you want to have more fun, then read the comments section of the blog articles and tell me which "side" makes the more convincing arguments using logic and rationality, with minimal use of logical fallacies (keep an eye out for Tu quoque).

Sorry for the rant but pro-China nationalists is a pet hate of mine.

This is exactly the same kind of bullshit that you find if you do google.jp on the issue, except it's the Japanese side. Yes, there is a huge massive vocal group of dumb nationalists. That doesn't mean there are no opposing voices at all, though they are (from my point of view) more stifled than the counter-blind-nationalist debaters are in, say, the US. And it's plain wrong and very counter-productive to accuse the Chinese people of being the only country with huge nationalism issues.

Actually, when I wrote about these very issues on lang-8 one of the worst kind of narrow-minded nationalist maniac came along so I'll link it as an example. http://tinyurl.com/cl4f98x I've seen very similar rhetoric being used on the 2ch-linked #japanese IRC chat, naturally on the 2ch message boards, on Yahoo message boards, and even in supposedly 'professional' news contexts. All the major Japanese newspapers seem to be really happy about hating on the dirty foreigners - for a IMO very good alternative news source that goes a bit more in depth and presents a generally much more sensible Japanese world view, I recommend http://www2.jfn.co.jp/owj/ . Oh and have you ever tried reading Japanese Wikipedia pages about history? I always bring up as an example the article about 731部隊; I suggest comparing the English version with the Japanese version and then reading the Japanese discussion page. Denial much? (but also note how there are down-to-earth Japanese users who try to raise the issue of objectivity on the discussion page)　ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/731部隊

Even in this thread there was a post by Arupan on the first page, obviously a native Japanese poster (as evidenced by the phrase " Japanese deliciously eating food") who wrote : "I think Japan is really the rightful owner of the islands and China is just trying to get a hold of them by making threats since the current ruling democratic party does pretty much everything what it is told by the Chinese government." This is a really common conspiracy theory about how the Japanese government is the Chinese government's puppet - usually this also comes with some vague idea about how if Japan really just stood up to China and was like JAPAN! FAKKU YEAH then everything would magically work out for the best for the Japanese people.

Gibbering nationalists are silly and all over. Why don't you make all of them, instead of only "pro-China nationalists" your pet hate?

(and yes, you really should read up on Islam and what it means to be a Muslim in different times and regions before choosing to loathe approx. 23% of all people on Earth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam - do you even know the difference between, oh, say Sunni and Shia?)

Edit: Not to mention you are shitting on the memory of this man and what he represents by your ignorance http://time-az.com/images/2009/05/20090 … 1-1808.jpg

Last edited by Surreal (2012 September 22, 2:35 pm)

Surreal wrote:

This is exactly the same kind of bullshit that you find if you do google.jp on the issue, except it's the Japanese side. Yes, there is a huge massive vocal group of dumb nationalists.

Tu quoque fallacy? I'm aware that nationalist behavior exists on all sides.

Surreal wrote:

That doesn't mean there are no opposing voices at all,

Nor did I make the claim that there are no opposing voices.

Surreal wrote:

though they are (from my point of view) more stifled than the counter-blind-nationalist debaters are in, say, the US.

Definitely, and one of the biggest points. If Christians are to engage in extreme behavior, the rest of America would be quick to condemn it and are consistent in condemning it. If Muslims and Pro-China nationalists engage in extreme behavior, they also do the same thing (condemning it), except they are less quick in doing so, less consistent in doing so, and to a lesser extent.

Surreal wrote:

And it's plain wrong and very counter-productive to accuse the Chinese people of being the only country with huge nationalism issues.

Good thing I didn't make that accusation. I suggest that you refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Surreal wrote:

Gibbering nationalists are silly and all over. Why don't you make all of them, instead of only "pro-China nationalists" your pet hate?

You know how atheists in America commonly criticize Christians to a greater extent than say, Muslims or Buddhists? They do so because Christianity is more relevant in their society. Although atheists oppose all religions, for American atheists, Christianity in particular are their pet hate.

Similarly, even though I oppose all nationalism, pro-China nationalists are my pet hate because I keep encountering them on pretty much all the internet sites I visit. I oppose pro-America nationalism just as much, but at least I can take comfort in the anti-pro-America nationalists that are much more common than anti-pro-China nationalists. As you said:

Surreal wrote:

though they are (from my point of view) more stifled than the counter-blind-nationalist debaters are in, say, the US.

Surreal wrote:

Edit: Not to mention you are shitting on the memory of this man and what he represents by your ignorance http://time-az.com/images/2009/05/20090 … 1-1808.jpg

I think it's more accurate to say that China itself is shitting on the memory of that man, seeing as how search terms regarding "Tiananmen Square Massacre" are censored as well as, due to the state-imposed censorship on Chinese society, Chinese people are ignorant of that history while not ignorant of other history ("we own those rocks"). In other words, selective history in order to suit the nationalist cause.

Surreal wrote:

I like this word ballet where you are simultaneously trying to jump graciously and trip yourself, like you're doing a pas de bourrée and falling over yourself midstep, breaking your proverbial leg.

No problem. Just try not to put words in my mouth next time. Attack me for what I said, not for what I didn't say.

qwertyytrewq wrote:

Whose side is Taiwan on?

Assuming Taiwan is not on China's side, will China take the rocks away from Taiwan if Taiwan gets it?

Since Taiwan styles itself "Republic of China" its case for Chinese ownership of the islands is pretty much the same as the PRC's. Looking at one of Japan's other island disputes, over the Takeshima/Dokdo islands, while both Koreas claim to be the sole legitimate government of the entire country, North Korea supports the South's claim to and administration of the islands, as long as they are in Korean hands and not Japanese. Not sure if the PRC would have the same attitude towards Taiwan's claim. On the one hand the relations between Beijing and Taipei have never been better, they are already doing quite a lot of economic cooperation and the PRC already recognizes the islands as part of its "Taiwan province" anyway, so they could come to some sort of compromise. On the other hand, the balance of power between the "two Chinas" is a lot more assymmetrical than the one between the Koreas, and, unlike the DPRK, the PRC is fully capable of economically exploiting its claimed islands without the "intermediation" of its ideological rival, so it probably wouldn't even need to compromise with Taiwan.

tl/dr: idklol

When we read about this issue on the English Internet (such as comment sections of news websites and internet forums and blogs), by far, the majority of what we read are from the perspectives of Chinese people and from the the perspectives of the rest of the English speaking Western world (mostly Caucasian). Though we can't prove the Pro-China voices are Chinese in real life, due to the anonymous nature of the Internet, it would be fair to assume most of them are Chinese. After all, this is a China vs Japan debate, and it is Chinese people that have a stake in it. And it is Chinese people who would even know about it in the first place. Most of the Internet is in English so I think it is fair to assume that most people speaking English are in Western nations.

Westerners, should they comment on this issue, tend to be more neutral or generally display a lack of care about the situation (understandable, because it doesn't really concern them too much). Contrary to the more extreme Chinese perspective ("China owns the islands, death to Japan!"), in general Westerners at most, if not neutral, support China's claims a little bit, or support Japan's claims a little bit.

However, one group of people, one group of voices are noticeable absent: the voices of Japanese people. When was the last time you read an Internet forum and the poster said "I am a Japanese person living in Japan and this is my opinion on the issue"? Very few, if any. You don't need to go far for the Chinese perspective. But why the relative silence on the Japanese side?

I think some this can be explained by population. For example, there are many more Chinese people living in any given country than Japanese people. That's why it's easier to find a Chinese voice. The lack of Japanese voices can also be explained by Japan being an isolated country in terms of location (island nation) and language: Only Japan speaks Japanese while they don't really care about learning English. In contrast, countries other than China can speak Chinese and furthermore, Chinese people show enthusiasm for learning English.

Slate attempts to find the Japanese voice, albeit on 2channel, possibly a not very realistic source on what real Japanese people think. It's like asking YouTube commentors what they think about, well, anything. Nevertheless, here is the article:  http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense … ests_.html

In recent days, anti-Japanese protests have raged across China, sparked by Japanese claims over uninhabited islands in the East China Sea. In the Chinese nationalist view, the protests are against the Japanese “imperialists” who humiliated China in the 1930s and 1940s—Sept. 18 marked the 81st anniversary of the “Manchurian incident” that set the stage of Japan’s invasion of China.

The Japanese see things rather differently, but it's not like anyone would know. Though we've heard from the raucous Chinese protesters and have read the more moderate commentary on Weibo, China's domestic Twitter, the Western media have all but ignored the perspective of the ordinary Japanese.

To find out what they think, I took a look at Channel 2, or ni channeru, Japan's most well-known Internet bulletin board site.

For anyone living in Japan, what's the situation over there? Are people talking about it? If so how many? And if they are, to what extent (quickly passing interest or with red-hot Chinese-style passion)? I do recall that the mainstream Japanese news have reported on the protest so people watching the news should be aware of it.