on-yomi are used in ompounds; however there are some compounds that are on-kun and kun-on and so on. And some that are mucked up, like the p in psychology: For instance お土産 which is read "おみやげ".

Generally, reading the onyomi in compounds is correct. Even when knowing only one reading for most of the 700 kanji I can read, I might still guess the correct reading of an unfamiliar compound.

Inny Jan wrote:

Ask an average Japanese person what these on- or kun-yomi are and the chances are that they will not know - and they don't have to! Why do we?

They know.

You don't need to learn them by themself. I find it easiest to just learn at least one compound the kanji is used in, and then I may be able to guess it's reading in other compounds. Also, similar kanji may have similar reading; 先生 せんせい, 男性 だんせい and 高校 こうこう and 交換 こうかん.

Inny Jan wrote:

Ask an average Japanese person what these on- or kun-yomi are and the chances are that they will not know - and they don't have to! Why do we?

Chances are that a common person will not know the difference between your and you're, but that doesn't make it OK now does it?

In general, most Japanese people can take a given kanji, out of context or in context, and start listing on and kun readings at will.

Maybe it isn't necessary for JSL learners to have the same level of knowledge - but you really have no idea what you are talking about if you think Japanese people don't know them.

Ah, I see.
Well, chances are they already know the words they're seeing, in which case they don't need to know the individual readings in the first place. They'll know that 先 is さき,生　is なま and 先生 is せんせい without having to think about it.

But take us non-japanese folks. Say you learn them as you go. First you learn that 生 is なま except when it's 生む or 生きる、先 is さき、先生 is せんせい、男性 is だんせい、女性 is じょせい, and so on. You'd always have to learn the new readings for each individual word you encounter since you wouldn't have a basic rule to follow and would always start from the assumption that you don't know which reading to use.

Or you could just learn the kanjis+On/Kun readings and follow the basic "compound is On" rule, and you could start guessing. Sure, you'd have to check, and there are like a gazillion exceptions to the rule, but you'd have a headstart since you could just assume all compounds use On readings and there's a high chance you'd be right. Also, you'd get an uber-head start with 四字熟語 since they tend to always use On readings.

Each with their own way, I guess, but the general assumption that a native doesn't know it, therefore I shouldn't is flawed to begin with. Natives compensate their lack of knowledge about the language with their knowledge of the language.

kitakitsune wrote:

Yes they know exactly which reading is on and which is kun. And they'll laugh at you too for asking such an easy question.

Inny Jan wrote:

Clearly, our experiences are different.

ya in front of gaijin japanese people will frequently say they don't know how to write or read complex kanji but it's nonsense to make you feel good. they know those dern kanji.

Isn't that just them being modest and/or not realizing what they do or do not know since they haven't really thought about it?

dtcamero wrote:

ya in front of gaijin japanese people will frequently say they don't know how to write or read complex kanji but it's nonsense to make you feel good. they know those dern kanji.

The write part is definitely not nonsense.

As for on-yomi/kun-yomi, they probably only say they don't know it because it's not something they think about very often and they haven't really needed to know it since high school.  But if you know the language, it's not that hard to figure out which is on and which is kun even if you didn't study it.  Of course there are some tricky ones that they might get wrong, but most of them they should be fine on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9IFBn-Ms6A

This is that TokyoZeplin video.  It's like hearing scraping nails on a chalkboard.

JimmySeal wrote:

I've never tried this, but you might stump people if you asked them what the on-yomi were for 絵, 肉, and 込.

Yeah, confusing ones.  I definitely would have said え was kunyomi. I'm not sure if I would have remembered that にく is onyomi.  And I would have said I don't know for the third.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2012 September 19, 4:47 am)