earlobes
New member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2012-09-17
Posts: 2
Hey guys,
I've been learning Chinese for about a year now, and I've finished volume 1 of RTH. I know you folks are more focused on Japanese here, but I thought maybe you could help me out.
I've been doing a lot of research into the best methods to learn quickly, because my progress is kind of slow, and it seems like there's more disagreeance than agreeance.
Basically, I put together a short survey to see what people are doing, and how effective they find it. I'd really appreciate it if you took a minute or two to fill it out. I just want to see what people are doing, how they rate their progress, and basically how they think they could improve.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/vie … c6MA#gid=0
Not trying to promote one method over another, but I'll publish the results when I have enough data, so that everyone can benefit from it.
Thanks guys! If you have any advice, it would be appreciated!
tashippy
Member
From: New York
Registered: 2011-06-18
Posts: 566
warakawa wrote:
two words: date Japanese women.
yes, i think this would help for learning any language.
edit: hyperborea, i was joking. i didn't even mention the word count.
PS when i tell a japanese man that i want to learn japanese, it is not uncommon for him to immediately suggest i find a japanese girlfriend...
Last edited by tashippy (2012 September 18, 11:15 am)
earlobes
New member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2012-09-17
Posts: 2
Tori-kun, I know that there's no single best way, the point is to see what people find helpful, what tools people combine to get the best results, etc.
Thanks to everyone that has responded so far! There aren't enough data yet to make any kind of statement, but I see a few trends developing (surprisingly few people using the big commercial tools like Rosetta stone)
Stian
Member
From: England
Registered: 2012-06-21
Posts: 426
I think it depends where you ask. On this forum, core10k is the one true way, it seems, but on how-to-learn-any-language.com there are a lot of different methods suggested.
Furthermore, this forums consists of mostly Japanese learners which might not help you find out how learners of languages like Russian, Vietnamese, Swahili, Spanish on so on learn.
At least nobody endorses romaji here... and think kanji and kana is only for those who think they are "pretty" -- and that they should return to romaji when they are tired of the "pretty" kanji and just wants to "understand". To be honest, romaji is much tougher to understand as it is distant to both written and spoken Japanese.
Last edited by Stian (2012 September 18, 4:30 am)
Tzadeck
Member
From: Kinki
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 2484
Stian wrote:
To be honest, romaji is much tougher to understand as it is distant to both written and spoken Japanese.
No.
First of all, romaji is used in Japan too, in a variety of ways. Typing is the most everyday example, but there are tons of others, such as shop names, international companies, written slang/abbreviations (w, jk, ky, etc.). Any anthropologist, linguist or other professional studying Japan would say that Japan has at least four writing systems: hiragana, katakana, kanji, and romaji.
Second of all, romaji isn't any closer or farther from spoken Japanese than kana is. They are equally as close to spoken Japanese. After all, they are both symbolic systems that line up with each other one-to-one: chi=ち=(the sound).
Last edited by Tzadeck (2012 September 18, 6:09 am)
Stian
Member
From: England
Registered: 2012-06-21
Posts: 426
but romaji assign symbols even to unvoiced vowels. kana are usually written in a long string which makes up a sentence. Romaji, however, use spaces. Also, kana represent a mora each*, whereas romaji uses 1, 2 and 3 characters per mora.
*Characters like きゃ and じょ are counted as one here.
Of course, romaji is used in Japanese, but kana and kanji are much, much more widely used. And in typing, I use ti to write ち and si to write し and so on.
Romaji is important to know, but you should use it as the only way of reading Japanese.
Stian
Member
From: England
Registered: 2012-06-21
Posts: 426
I started to read kana from day one, so I find it easy. In fact, having less characters is easier for me due to my vision which causes my reading speed to be a bit slower than usualy. The fact that 志 may replaces 11 roman characters and 5 kana is something I find great.
When reading a kana I know what syllable I'm reading, so I always pay attention to the next kana, so I know if I should voice the vowel or not.. I know how to read romaji, and there is nothing to learn about it. I simply feel there is nothing to learn by reading romaji; you don't practice reading and you practice only a tiny bit of skills that are required for listening -- for instance telling homophones apart based on context.
Also, English is my second language, and I have nearly never had the chance to speak it, therefore I have relied on retaining my vocabulary by reading forums, websites and so on. Thus, I would prefer to know how to read it in order to keep my interest in Japanese. At least 95% of the English input I receive, is written, so naturally it will be the same with Japanese.
(Seriously, until a few months ago, I pronounced thoroughly as though-roughly :p)
Right now, at this stage, I pick up vocabulary whilst reading and practice understanding it in spoken context by listening. If there is a word I hear rather often, I just type it out in kana, and then check a dictionary to see what kanji are the most common (jisho.org) for instance.
I must admit though, that I did mess up ふ and ゆ for some reason, even though they look nothing alike. :p
Last edited by Stian (2012 September 18, 7:06 am)
Tzadeck
Member
From: Kinki
Registered: 2009-02-21
Posts: 2484
Stian wrote:
but romaji assign symbols even to unvoiced vowels. kana are usually written in a long string which makes up a sentence. Romaji, however, use spaces. Also, kana represent a mora each*, whereas romaji uses 1, 2 and 3 characters per mora.
*Characters like きゃ and じょ are counted as one here.
Of course, romaji is used in Japanese, but kana and kanji are much, much more widely used. And in typing, I use ti to write ち and si to write し and so on.
Romaji is important to know, but you should use it as the only way of reading Japanese.
Kana has the same problem with unvoiced and voiced vowel sounds. The し in よろしく is devoiced, but the し in しぬ is voiced, but both use the same symbol. Likewise, they both use the same romaji (shi or si depending on the system).
The reason romaji uses spaces is incidental to the system. Romaji would be hard to read with no spaces. How does not having any spaces represent Japanese better than having spaces? It doesn't. (In fact, children's books in Japanese sometimes include spaces to make reading easier for the children)
Romaji represents a mora per vowel, rather than a mora per individual symbol, so it does the job just as well. I like how you think you can make an exception and say that きゃ and じょ are counted as one symbol when they are clearly two (you put them in separate boxes when writing on Japanese draft paper) , but you say that romaji is two or three symbols, even though they are used to represent one mora just like きゃ and じょ.
Your arguments are irrational and perhaps reflect a frustration with (or feeling of superiority over) learners, classes, or textbooks that don't deal with the real Japanese writing system. So somehow you're venting your frustration by saying that kana represents Japanese sounds better than romaji. It doesn't. The reason you have to learn kana and kanji is because they are the symbols that Japanese people use for the majority of their reading and writing. It has nothing to do with one of the systems better representing the sounds of the language. They both do it equally well. Romaji is not 'distant to spoken Japanese.'
Last edited by Tzadeck (2012 September 18, 9:01 am)
AlexandreC
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2008-09-26
Posts: 309
First of all, people have different goals. Mine is to speak and use the language, others prefer to read; I can only speak for myself. Japanese was the 14th language I studied; it's the 5th language I can comfortably hold a conversation in.
To me, language learning should always focus on effective use. You could study forever without using the language, focusing on things that don't matter, on words you'll never use, on trying to cover X number of words on SRS, and you'd never get anywhere. Never lose sight of the necessity to communicate using the language and you won’t be wasting time learning things you’ll never use, or learning twice what you have forgotten because you don't use it often enough. Use the language whenever you can and create situations where you need to use it. Get a language partner and meet regularly. Let use dictate what you need to know -- this is the most effective way to learn.
