Yes but Krashen says a lot of other things as well, like describing an "affective filter" - attentiveness to the input being regulated by things like anxiety and motivation

Oh well we're getting carried away.

TwoMoreCharacters wrote:

I only had my first real conversation a few weeks ago, and of course my pronunciation was awkward and my active vocabulary felt lower than I thought it was, but with every day of casual talking it's been improving incredibly as you're saying. I think of it as it getting up to where it should be already, but I know I sound naive.

Out of curiosity, TMC, how long would you say you waited until you started speaking? E.g., how many words (approximately) did you have down, and what is your level of reading/listening comprehension?

I started speaking recently - just a couple of times a week - with a vocab of around 4,000-5,000 and a decent grammar base (between N3 and N2). Some days, I feel like I jumped the gun. But I've definitely noticed an improvement in my ability to form thoughts and sentences, and to turn my passive vocab into active knowledge.

gaiaslastlaugh wrote:

TwoMoreCharacters wrote:

I only had my first real conversation a few weeks ago, and of course my pronunciation was awkward and my active vocabulary felt lower than I thought it was, but with every day of casual talking it's been improving incredibly as you're saying. I think of it as it getting up to where it should be already, but I know I sound naive.

Out of curiosity, TMC, how long would you say you waited until you started speaking? E.g., how many words (approximately) did you have down, and what is your level of reading/listening comprehension?

I started speaking recently - just a couple of times a week - with a vocab of around 4,000-5,000 and a decent grammar base (between N3 and N2). Some days, I feel like I jumped the gun. But I've definitely noticed an improvement in my ability to form thoughts and sentences, and to turn my passive vocab into active knowledge.

Sorry, I've never been as systematic with the learning and SRSing as some people seem to be, so I don't have an exact starting date and stats, I can't try to put a number on how many words I know. I do know that I'd been learning for about two years (having started with RTK by my join date) and my comprehension was high enough to understand the vast majority of daily conversation, and easier reading material like manga and light novels without dictionaries. My situation is working part time at a sushi place (serving food, doing dishes, anything but actually making the food), so I take a lot of basic instructions and I don't really recall any problems with understanding them, though the others do speak Swedish as well and tend to switch to it sometimes when there's something really important they want to tell me.

I didn't really purposely wait, if I'd had any spontaneous opportunity to speak Japanese prior to this I'd gladly taken it, there just aren't many native speakers here and I haven't been hyped about getting language partners on Skype etc. When you say "jumped the gun" do you mean you feel like you might be starting with speaking too early? If you ask me personally I don't feel like it matters. The only reason against it that I can see is if you start as a complete beginner and through countless mistakes create a lot of bad habits, but there are people who do it and turn out fine by all means, and you're quite a bit ahead yourself.

Another thing to consider is the difficulties with the pronunciation. Having Swedish as my native language, creating the sounds of Japanese was never that difficult since our languages use similar phonetics (?), similar movements with the tongue. It's like how lots of people say Japanese pronunciation is similar to Spanish. So my awkward pronunciation mistakes are more subtle than those of perhaps most English native speakers. It's been things like pronouncing too clearly, like pronouncing 少ない as "sukkunai" rather than what's almost "s'kunai", with the u being slightly softened/silenced. So as a native English speaker there might be reasons to follow advice from some like AlexandreC on here, saying that since getting proper speaking down is a long term investment you should be practicing it from the very start. I don't agree with it but my own experience is subjective.

TwoMoreCharacters wrote:

Are you saying that you think people learn absolutely nothing from listening and reading Japanese? That's not was Tzadeck's saying, he's saying that you also have to actively use what you learn to retain it. Or am I wrong, Tza?

Where did I say that? lol

dtcamero wrote:

i think he's saying that you need to speak... listening alone won't get you to natural speech patterns. i thought it would, ajatt says it will... turns out we were wrong and i wasn't able to say anything until i made some native friends and started talking. the up side of this is that when you do finally turn that corner, your progression accelerates rapidly.

I think so too, but I wanted to emphasize on the fact that our attitude toward something affects several things in us that will greatly, and without our notice, affect the final result. I was a bit too excited about sharing the idea to put it in a better context in replay to Tzadeck.

Also, I'm terrible at expressing my thoughts in words, sorry!

I think how much people get out of listening is going to depend on what type of learner they are, as well as active engagement.

imabi wrote:

I have gotten suggestions by two native speakers: a teacher and a foreign exchange student. Both speakers did not suggest the same things and did not give the same explanations to the problems. Some of the suggestions made by the student were rejected by the teacher. The reason for this inconsistency is puzzling for me as my exchange student friend is actually a Japanese language nerd in his own right.

Yes, I think that's not so surprising, especially for a relatively formal piece of writing. When I was studying English Lit., I quickly found different lecturers had their own ideas about how a piece should be written, having different opinions on style and structure, and ended up tailoring my essays to meet different expectations depending on the class. Of course, I have my own ideas too, and I'm sure my own style came through regardless. You're exactly right that people become able to tell who wrote a piece, writers have their own 'voice', which in the case of literature, it wouldn't really be nearly as interesting without.

In those cases, no one was necessarily wrong, even though what one lecturer preferred and asked for might be something another really disliked and would tell you off for, ie. for a straightforward example, there's the question whether the use of the word 'I' is appropriate in academic writing, or should be avoided. Which, from a student's point of view, isn't particularly fair (considering you could be asked to change something that wasn't actually wrong...then change it again for someone else), but there you go.

Last edited by Ampharos64 (2012 September 16, 7:54 pm)

Inny Jan wrote:

Once, when I was in Japan, I wanted to ask whether it's ok to take a picture of the place. So, I went:
写真を撮っていいですか。

Although I was understood (the answer was: いいですよ。), the phrase somehow seemed odd to me, so I checked my grammar resources and determined that what I should have said was:
写真を撮ってもいいですか。

Hmmm, I know the grammar books say てもいいですか is the correct way to ask "may I ....?" but I've been in Japan for about 6 weeks and am yet to hear someone include the も in such questions...

Last edited by SammyB (2012 September 17, 6:36 am)

It wasn't being anti-mistakes... His point was that you shouldnt do output early on,  making up english sentences with Japanese words basically...because you could create bad habits. Rather you should wait until you have enough input to use that foundation to draw out Japanese sentence-structure.

It's one of his many vaguely worded ideas that get misconstrued (by people who probably never read the original article) and turned against him... Like the 'don't study grammar' canard... . Anyways it's actually quite a sound idea to not speak much until you've heard a lot of Japanese first...

They're not his ideas, but rather krashen and antimoon's. He just added the marketing and soundbites. Soundbites are by their nature an oversimplification and therefore generate misunderstanding.

I'm not saying drama or anime is bad in anyway, it is real Japanese made for Japanese people after all, it can be interesting and fun with lots of new words to learn. However if you want to sound more Japanese i.e. like a native then people have to realize that this stuff is scripted, 好きだ and 好きなんだ are very different--whether one chooses to see it as a big deal or not is up to the individual.
I'm not trying to knock it, I've used it as a source of learning and if you don't have Japanese friends or confidence then it's definitely a good idea. Exposure is absolutely necessary so any form will do. I just think the best way to sound more Japanese is to speak to Japanese people and ask them for help. They will tell you directly if you sound native instead of leaving you to guess "I heard it from Ghost Mama so it must be right." If it is right then that's good, if it's not then you'll at least be aware. Assumptions are rarely a good thing, get confirmation if at all possible.

Last edited by Crispy (2012 September 17, 12:46 pm)

tae kim:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/particles3.html

start reading from this:
The crucial difference between using the explanatory 「の」 and not using anything at all is that you are telling the listener, "Look, here's the reason" as opposed to simply imparting new information. For example, if someone asked you, "Are you busy now?" you can simply answer, 「今は忙しい」. However, if someone asked you, "How come you can't talk to me?" since you obviously have some explaining to do, you would answer, 「今は忙しいの」 or 「今は忙しいんだ」. This grammar is indispensable for seeking explanations in questions. For instance, if you want to ask, "Hey, isn't it late?" you can't just ask, 「遅くない？」 because that means, "It's not late?" You need to indicate that you are seeking explanation in the form of 「遅いんじゃない？」.

maybe you should do tae kim. this question is really basic japanese. I personally think tae kim explains it exceptionally well. even if he doesn't explain it down to the T as long you have a general idea of the meaning or the nuance once you encounter in real life or media aimed at native people, you'll get it some more (each and every time you come across it).

Last edited by howtwosavealif3 (2012 September 17, 6:39 pm)

dtcamero wrote:

It wasn't being anti-mistakes... His point was that you shouldnt do output early on,  making up english sentences with Japanese words basically...because you could create bad habits. Rather you should wait until you have enough input to use that foundation to draw out Japanese sentence-structure.

Yeah, fair enough. And sensible. AntiMoon is more of the "make no mistakes" school (http://www.antimoon.com/how/mistakes.htm).

So, sorry, Khatz. If you're reading. Which you're not.

FWIW, I do think AntiMoon makes a great point in stressing sticking with simple structures. I've noticed that I make the most mistakes when I attempt to create complicated sentence structures. The more I stick to the basics, the better chance I seem to have of being understood in casual conversation. I think, just like we have to read a lot of basic sentences before reading them becomes second nature, we have to speak a lot of simple sentences before outputting them becomes almost automatic. Once that happens, we can move on to more complex output.

Last edited by gaiaslastlaugh (2012 September 17, 6:52 pm)

oook that's very helpful thank you