Oh wow, thanks a ton, quite a long video. I'll watch now and post my thoughts.

Very nice, it was unbiased, spoke about the good and bad. It was very well made and I'm so grateful for the link.

Glad someone else decided to watch it, after watching it slide down the recent topics, I thought no one was going to notice it. It truly is a well made documentary, although now I'm scared of the police force, even though I've heard a few bad things before. It really sells Japan as a lovely place.

Thanks, always interesting to see more, highly rated too

Damn I love this topic, what better way to split study time up than with a good old documentary

I haven't watched the whole documentary yet but just wanted to point out that while there is a sort of "shared" responsibility for car accidents in Japan - by no means will a person ever be "blamed" for the death of a passenger of a car that rear-ended them.

What usually happens though is that the insurance of the car not at fault will take on responsibility for about 5-10% of the settlement. Japanese society requires a token share of the blame and this is normal but I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that this ratio implies full on blame or anything.

And there will definitely never be any legal action taken against a driver so clearly not at fault unless they were drunk or driving without license/insurance.

edit: This concept applies to people riding bicycles too.

edit 2: It also applies to any kind of accident in Japan that could possibly be blamed on anyone. Walking down the street and a random conbini sign breaks and falls on your head? Think the conbini is 100% at fault? Think again!

Last edited by kitakitsune (2012 August 09, 9:26 am)

my main problem with it was simply that it bored me.

i've heard all that stuff before. I'm sure there's elements of truth to it, but whenever you hear the same thing repeated with almost the same words by numerous different people, you should tend be wary of it. Because obviously, there is no "truth" about many cultural things, only various narratives. And particularly among gaijin who don't speak Japanese, but also gaijin in general, there certainly does seem to be a set of fixed narratives, which can cloud your own perspective, and stop you enjoying making your own.

Regardless of which, i just got realllllllly bored of hearing these types of things in Japan. It might be fun to get a few conversations out of "common knowledge" about Japan, but it wears thin pretty quickly.

I'm not knocking anyone else for enjoying it, it's just my personal opinion that i found it shallow. I found both of the documentaries i quoted to have more depth and be more interesting (although many of the ideas in Pilger's documentary have since become cultural stereotypes, i'll let it off because it's old, and it isn't only made up of that;)).

re: The Japanese legal system. Yes, there are areas that aren't so great, but i don't really think you need to live in fear of them. Compared to America, they are like saints.
As far as i'm aware, convictions are rarely based on circumstantial evidence, but on confessions. Still, it's worth looking into more seriously rather than listening to fear mongering if you do live in Japan. You need to know your rights wherever you live.

Last edited by IceCream (2012 August 09, 11:13 am)

Well, hearing things like "If just one kanji in a sentence is unknown, the entire sentence becomes impossible to read" might be enough to alert people here to the questionable accuracy of some of the information.

I enjoyed some of the footage from the train window, of the countryside and of everyday Japan. That's a welcome change from the more typical images of hyper-urban, temples & tea ceremony, or weird harajuku & akihabara. I felt like I was flipping through old photo albums; the minor details bringing back some otherwise inaccessible wonderful memories. Thanks Somstuf.

I also like hearing people talk about the great kayaking, hiking, skiing, fishing, boating, island beaches, etc in Japan. In my experience, many foreigners don't take advantage of all that Japan has to offer. (We used to board a downtown Tokyo train and arrive at the base of the ski hill  an hour later. The destination train station was also the ski lift station! One could throw their suit and briefcase in a locker and be snowboarding in minutes!)

There were a couple interviewees I would have been interested to hear from in more depth. The German(?) woman who spoke of a certain freedom or 'relaxation' in conformity. The Colombian? woman who noticed the tendency in Japan to avoid topics like human rights and global affairs (even though such topics are introduced in school.) The English fellow critical of Japan's undeveloped system of independent oversight and inadequate public criticism.

But that would be a different project. This video isn't really a documentary so much as an unfocused collection of a few Westerners' impressions. Visually appealing, fairly balanced, some stereotyping, and interesting for someone curious about Japan. Too broad to be very original or insightful. Too narrow a selection of interviewees to convey much sense of the foreigner situation in Japan.
[fixed: "skill hill"  ->  "ski hill"  haha]

Last edited by Thora (2012 August 09, 3:05 pm)

kitakitsune wrote:

vileru wrote:

Regardless, my fears haven't been dispelled. Sure, maybe I won't be imprisoned for a car accident where I was not at fault, but what about the numerous cases of foreigners being convicted and imprisoned merely based upon circumstantial evidence and unobjective detective work? Not to mention, it seems like appeals are almost impossible to come by in Japan. Although such an event is extraordinarily unlikely to occur, the possibility of it is nonetheless unnerving.

Just gaijin urban legends.

False imprisonment and abuses of justice occur in every country. Do you have any actual statistics that imply that it is more likely in Japan? What are the rates of imprisonment of foreigners in Japan compared to Japanese citizens?

And how do these statistics compare to your home country. You're not American are you?

What concerns me is the possibility, not the statistics. Yes, I'm American, and I'm sure abuses of justice are more common statistically (I have a friend who never stood a chance with his public defender. Plus, just a glance at the overcrowded prison system makes it clear that something is wrong). Likewise, the ratio of foreign vs. Japanese imprisonment would not reassure me either.

I am worried about the concrete experience itself. Yes, I'm probably much less likely to be arrested in Japan than elsewhere, but once you get to that stage, that's where the bad things seem to happen. Based upon various news articles I read, many countermeasures against abuses of justice common in other countries are not practiced in Japan. I realize this information is weak without any links, but I don't have that kind of time right now (these issues have been discussed here before, so the search option would be a good starting point). Anyway, what worried me most aout the articles were the horrific reports regarding detention of suspects and the trial process.

And, yes, such things happen elsewhere. What distinguishes Japan from elsewhere, however, is that they have little history of opposition against such practices. In the U.S., for example, the ACLU and various other legal groups are constantly fighting successfully against abuses of justice, especially those abuses targeting minorities and other vulnerable groups. I've never heard of similar groups in Japan. I suppose in the U.S., despite the record of abuses of justice, I'd have a chance with a good lawyer (and there are several high profile cases that prove this possibility). Whereas in Japan, it seems like you're already behind bars the moment you're handcuffed.

To sum up:
1. I'm not worried about the statistics. As I've repeated, I know the possibility is minuscule.
2. I am worried about the concrete circumstances of detention and trials.
3. If I was arrested and innocent, I think I would have a better chance of winning a trial and countering abuses of justice if my trial was in a Western country instead of Japan.

Anyhow, this discussion has made me curious to know the percentage of crimes that result in convictions. If the number is low, that would be quite relieving because it would support the view that they only arrest someone when they have strong evidence to believe the person is guilty. However, if the percentage is high, then there would be two plausible possibilities: (1) they are desperate to "punish" someone for the crime and will do whatever it takes to make that happen or (2) they have brilliant, hardworking detectives. I won't say anything else until I see the figures, though. Maybe I'll look them up if I have time later tonight.

Last edited by vileru (2012 August 09, 6:19 pm)

IceCream wrote:

i've heard all that stuff before. I'm sure there's elements of truth to it, but whenever you hear the same thing repeated with almost the same words by numerous different people, you should tend be wary of it. Because obviously, there is no "truth" about many cultural things, only various narratives. And particularly among gaijin who don't speak Japanese, but also gaijin in general, there certainly does seem to be a set of fixed narratives, which can cloud your own perspective, and stop you enjoying making your own.

Could you explain in more detail which narratives you take issue with and why? I can't seem to grasp what you're referring to because, for example, I find it difficult to disagree with the view that Japan is particularly convenient and its service industry is especially hospitable relative to other nations. The public transportation is outstanding, the cities are compact, vending machines and convenience stores are everywhere: it's convenient. Likewise, shop assistants are generally more friendly and helpful, and most will even remember you after your first purchase (at the department store price range and above. Although, a shop assistant at Uniqlo remembered me once). These facts seem to support the views well.

However, I do see that it's possible to disagree about certain aspects of convenience and the service industry. For instance, the virtual impossibility of making special requests at restaurants or bars (you're only supposed to order items on the menu) or the conformity by which shop assistants follow a script (whereas in the U.S., it is common for shop assistants to give personal opinions about products/services, including negative ones, or alert you to better deals, even at other stores. In short, more than their Japanese counterparts, shop assistants in the U.S. look out for the customers' best interests.). These criticisms, however, are minor details compared to the overall picture.

One last thing I should note is that Japanese often develop similar views once they travel abroad. So, it's not only non-Japanese who hold such views.

Anyway, thanks for your insights, and I'll definitely take a look at the other documentaries you posted.

@Seamoby: Glad you liked it!!

@vileru: i think you're getting too hung up on "truth" here, wheras my criticism was about the shallowness of such narratives to begin with.
The issue isn't whether or not the statement "Japan is convenient" is true or false (i don't even know what saying that is true or false would really mean). The issue is that whichever way you answer that question, it's shallow, and it affects the lens through which you then go on to view Japan. "Common knowledge" states that Japan is in fact convenient. So, then i go to Japan, and i pick out all these things about Japan that seem convenient, and i confirm the proposition "Japan is convenient". But maybe, i just don't care a great deal about convenience to start with, and it wouldn't have been something that had ever struck me about Japan if i had not been aware that it was common knowledge.

Indeed, there's plenty of things about Japan that i found hugely inconvenient. There's plenty of things about Britain that are incredibly convenient, but i don't go around thinking about Britain as a "convenient country", because it's not a proposition that is "common knowledge" with regard to Britain. So, common knowledge is that Japan is convenient, polite, safe, but slightly racist, and that's what the documentary confirms. Yawn.

In short, i prefer to make my own narratives rather than take other peoples, if possible. Maybe they end up the same, and maybe they don't. But i have a lot more fun making them, and not having my world view coloured by such views. As soon as you hear people making very similar statements about Japan to ones you've heard before, it's generally not their own viewpoint on Japan, but something that they have heard, and then confirmed for themselves afterwards in that way.

Let's take another few of the narratives that i can remember from that program as it's maybe easier to understand as an example. There was one girl who said that Japanese people can't critically asess art. Is it true? Maybe it is in general. Actually, i think the percentage of the population of Britain that can critically assess art in Britain is extremely small. But despite the fact that there is probably very little difference between Japan and Britain in this respect (and in fact, i know plenty of highly educated Japanese people who are better at critically assessing art than i am), because it plays into various other already set narratives about "Japanese people", it's somewhat "common knowledge".

Same goes for the civil disobediance stuff, and various other things. A lot of the time it isn't harmful, only a bit shallow and boring. But it can be harmful too (e.g. when it induces the kind of fear reaction seen in this thread). Do you see what i mean?

Last edited by IceCream (2012 August 10, 3:30 am)

Yeah "Japan - A Story of Love and Hate" was pretty good. Watched it last night. It seems I hate a lot of documentaries I try to watch despite liking documentaries. I've come to the conclusion that BBC is one of the only makers of documentaries that I can truly appreciate.