Hello everyone! I have searched around, having found many "resources" and the such, however no definitive course of self study. Assuming knowledge of every Hiragana and Katakana character, what should be studied next and in what order?

RTK1 is for well.. remembering how to write Kanji and in basic terms what each Kanji corresponds to in English, right? But which materials should I use to address other hurdles such as learning Japanese grammar from basic to expert levels and just as importantly pronunciation of words? I still don't understand how I will understand or construct words after learning around 3000 Kanji (w/ RTK3), since each Kanji has various On'yomi and a Kun'yomi, is there resources from which I can learn these things properly?!

Also should I use these resources concurrently with RTK1 or after completion of RTK1?

Edit: I'd just like to add I'm not looking for a speedy way to learn Japanese to fluency, just a steady way that actually works. I've heard that I should learn all of the RTK1 Kanji first and then learn Grammar.. but then how do I learn pronunciation?

It must be tough being a beginner, and there is definitely a lot to learn.

As you've said, there are a lot of resources out there. My site covers material from beginner to really advanced levels. There are also plenty of other sites for grammar as well, although my site is far from being just grammar as some people mistakenly think. As far as Kanji is concerned, I think that three a day is a consistent schedule that you should follow.

You should use sites like http://www.jisho.org to search information about Kanji. This site can let you see the stroke orders, the readings, and make searches to find words with those readings in it. Is crucial that you learn Kanji with vocab, or else there's no point. What's the use of knowing a Kanji without knowing words for it? Of course, kun'yomi are noticeable exceptions as they are all given words alone. This is normally not the case for the majority of Kanji on'yomi, but there are some very common exceptions like 円、一、etc.

The pronunciation of words is easy. There is plenty of music, news, and shows that you can listen and watch to in Japanese on the internet without having to pay anything. If you live in a community where there are Japanese people, there's nothing better than conversing with a native and trying to sound like them.

I thank you warmly for your reply. One important question: when you say vocabulary do you mean compound words? What I mean to say is a Kanji character by itself may have no real structural meaning, but next to two other it can make a word, right? I guess that's my main issue.. how will I learn that? And then with each word is a different pronunciation, so if I learn a lot of spoken Japanese say from Japanese dramas, how would I know how to write what I hear? These are legit questions I'm not trying to find an easy way or anything.

熟語（じゅくご） are definitely important to learn, but of course, you should limit the ones you study for those that are marked common. There is always going to be meanings attached to a character. In fact, you will discover later on that some readings are used for specific meanings of a character. There are different kinds of ON readings that often explain why certain ones go together, but you should always look up the readings of new words.

Just because a Kanji doesn't have a Kun'yomi doesn't mean it doesn't have real structural meaning. It can be very constructive. It may be that one of its On'yomi can be used by itself. A great example is 劇.

There is no one single spelling for words. If you want to write stuff that you hear, you are more than likely going to use less Kanji. For example, many words like kanari, naru, etc. are left in hiragana. There are many things grammatically that can be written in Kanji but normally never are. Examples include particles like kurai, made, hodo, etc. The common word koto in so many expressions is often left as こと.

Japanese shows may also have more colloquial use of language. This will also typically make Kanji less necessary. You could simply just write what you hear, or at least attempt, into kana. If you look for things like particles and grammatical patterns, just knowing what they are and not knowing how to use them can help you at least know what the phrases are in a sentence while you're learning, can help you make searches to know what it says.

NHK, which I like a lot, although it's a news site, has video clips accompany most of its articles, and the announcers basically say what's in the script. Although it's a little boring, there are plenty of outlets just like it that you can use to help listen and read at the same time. I think listening to song lyrics while having the lyrics up is a great way to build up Kanji skills quickly and getting your ear used to Japanese.

I'm not sure if I've totally answered your questions.

I think the most important thing is staying motivated, because whatever method(s) you end up using, it's still going to take a long time to achieve fluency. Designing your own method could prove quite motivational (i.e.: it could make you more prone to stick with it!).

My own method, after RTK1 and 3, goes like this: I add a set amount of new words (from the JLPT vocab lists - but any decent list would do...) in Anki every day. The cards are so:

Side A:
写真 (copy, true)
photograph

Side B:
しゃしん　

This way, I don't specifically "study" for on and kun readings, but I end up remembering them anyway. Also, the cards go in both directions, in order to test the two most important things IMO: understanding the meaning from the sound (hiragana) and being able to say out loud what you read. The meaning from the kanji is often kind of trivial and anyway, I'm aware that it will need a bit of reading and listening to really know how to use it in real life. As for grammar, I'm staying with my philosophy that the most important is staying motivated, so I only look grammar points up when I want to (but you'll definitely want to at some point ) To me, there's nothing more frustrating than reading about grammar when you don't understand the vocabulary in example sentences! Same thing with textbooks, I occasionally read them for fun, but never do exercises.

Other methods include studying whole sentences instead of just words. Not my thing, but in case it interests you, search for "AJATT". It's probably a better way if you want to start speaking faster. Anyway... I guess the best thing you could do is to think about it and come up with your own study method!

Okay then basically if I told you I knew the first 250 Kanji from RTK1 4th edition and nothing other than the written form itself and the RTK1 "meanings", what would you tell me to do? I have no idea what sounds each Kanji does or can make, and I don't know what words I should be learning for these Kanji and where I can get these sample words. If one Kanji has 8 On'yomi, and I learned it in RTK1, what exactly am I supposed to do? How do people actually learn this? Do I learn the information from RTK1 first and then..?

This is the #1 reason I have never gone further than Hiragana and Katakana. Even if I did learn 1000+ Kanji, I'll probably miss out half the info and render my effort redundant.

Edit: sorry I was typing this before the two posts above came about I shall read those now.

Edit 2: Okay I think I've disseminated what I need to do. I think. I'm going to learn all of RTK1 first and then ummm.. well I'll worry about that later.
Is it safe to do RTK1 without doing anything else at the same time?

EratiK Wrote:

isotopenofantaji Wrote:I thank you warmly for your reply. One important question: when you say vocabulary do you mean compound words? What I mean to say is a Kanji character by itself may have no real structural meaning, but next to two other it can make a word, right? I guess that's my main issue.. how will I learn that? And then with each word is a different pronunciation, so if I learn a lot of spoken Japanese say from Japanese dramas, how would I know how to write what I hear? These are legit questions I'm not trying to find an easy way or anything.

Most people learn compound words and expressions ie vocabulary using pre-made vocabulary decks on Anki like Core 2000, Core 6000... also known as shared decks and freely downloadable.

Okay this seems legit thank you, thank you to everyone. So learn RTK1 properly then delve into vocab. decks.. not asking if it will work for me but it works for others right?

imabi Wrote:It must be tough being a beginner, and there is definitely a lot to learn.

@imabi You were one once, right? Anyway, what was your course of study? How did you go from 0 Japanese to almost Japanese expert?

Based on my experience I think it depends on your learning style. Some people work well with tackling something in a structured way vs. learning things here and there and putting it together themselves. My personal path has been a structured one: 1. finishing RTK1, 2. Finishing RTK 3 (some people prefer this as optional and after RTK1 they learn the other 1000 through context and exposure, but I need structure so I did this) 3. I am working through Genki 1 which has been presenting me grammar lessons which build upon each previous chapter.

Basically for grammar and such I prefer textbook because I need exercises to practice what I learn. A textbook also presents grammar in an amount at a time that I can digest.

Before I went the textbook Route I was doing core 2000, which is just purely learning and memorizing vocabulary. I found it really hard to retain the vocabulary with no context and no way of really practicing what I learned. Plus I wasn't learning any grammar so knowing all the vocab wasn't practical yet. So I decided to go the textbook route so that I would learn vocabulary and grammar at the same time and practice them at the same time, which is how I learned english as a kid.

I also have a couple of good trusty japanese dictionaries and I use lang-8.com to have my homework corrected by native japanese people.

isotopenofantaji Wrote:Okay this seems legit thank you, thank you to everyone. So learn RTK1 properly then delve into vocab. decks.. not asking if it will work for me but it works for others right?

Yeah, I deleted because I got ninjad big time by Comeauch and Hyperborea. But yes, vocabulary decks are probably and the best way to learn some basic vocab quickly (well relatively, expect to learn something like 1000 words a month) and we all do it, and it works.

isotopenofantaji Wrote:If one Kanji has 8 On'yomi, and I learned it in RTK1, what exactly am I supposed to do? How do people actually learn this? Do I learn the information from RTK1 first and then..?

I guess most people from this forum would tell you to first study RTK (kind of a biased website ) and so am I! Regarding readings, it's true that some kanjis have many readings, but IHMO, you're better off learning words. This way, you actually start learning real, useful Japanese. Plus, after seeing: 最後　「さいご」、　最中　「さいちゅう」、　最終　「さいしゅう」... you'll get it: 最 is read さい. I don't think it's necessary to learn them together or to use any method. Just trying to memorize the whole words will lead your brain into finding patterns. It's a bit difficult at first because you don't know ANY reading, but as you progress, it's easier and easier. Sometimes, there's a "new" reading for a character you thought you knew... and that's it. I much prefer that than learning all the readings of all the kanjis beforehand XD Then again, it's only my way of doing it!

delta Wrote:

imabi Wrote:It must be tough being a beginner, and there is definitely a lot to learn.

@imabi You were one once, right? Anyway, what was your course of study? How did you go from 0 Japanese to almost Japanese expert?

Part of it has to do with a photographic memory. I remember where things are in books I've read years ago. I may not know the exact location after a while, but I have a general idea. It's why I never annotate in books and still know where things are quite fine. So, when I was in junior high I pretty much remembered all the readings and meanings of the Kanji in my first Kanji books in a matter of days.

This catapulted my ability in learning new vocabulary. I have spent about 5-6 hours studying Japanese pretty much everyday for the last 5 years, so what I have done is pretty much overkill.

However, starting about three years ago, what really got me to where I am today was the starting of my site. Instead of putting all my notes on pieces of paper or on word documents, they could all go on one place. Whenever I learn something new, even to this day, I put it somewhere on the site. I continuously study more about what I already know. I study etymology, dialectical, classical stuff, etc. all the time.

I'm not an expert yet. I still need at least 10 more years before I'm any sense of the true word expert. I still have to learn the rest of the Kanji for the Kanken 1, which I've given myself until the end of 2014.

Someone did mention something just now that I find interesting and hopefully can resolve on my own site. That is not understanding the vocabulary in a sentence. Not knowing which words are what in a sentence is a problem. When a translation is provided, given that the sentence is not idiomatic, knowing syntax well enough and knowing Kanji should help you figure out what goes where. When idioms are used, I mark them and normally give a literal translation, which is sometimes hard to do without using unnatural English.

Well, back to helping out our new beginner here.

I wouldn't buy books for Kanji or grammar unless if you just want them. I've bought several when I first started and after buying 20 of them, at a certain point they got bought for resource purposes, you generally see the same things over and over again, and normally the same things NOT mentioned. Luckily with the internet when a place like me fails to elaborate on something, you can always continue searching for what you want. After all, no prescribed course is going to be able to fit what you exactly need. The nice thing with me is that I'm a really person and normally have most of the day to tend to questions and fixing things on the site.

I like flashcards to a degree. I eventually get bored after about 5 minutes or so of making them. If they were pre-made for me, they'd be even more helpful. Places like quizlet are good for making your own online flashcards. It can even do the pronunciation of Japanese words. Sometimes it doesn't know which readings to use, but otherwise it's nice.

Of course, it's extremely important to read books. Even at your level, I still thinks it's important to have some form of reading material so that you can try to see if you can spot the stuff that you know and mark the stuff you don't for future studying.

Doing RTK1 first is fine. After that, you can start picking up vocab and grammar at whatever pace you want. Worry about finishing RTK1 first. While you're doing that, you can read this board for ideas you might want to try after you finish.

The best method is the one that keeps you going. No matter how theoretically perfect a method may be, if you can't stick to it, then it sucks. My method may be hell for you, and vice-versa. So when you're done with RTK1, try out a lot of things, succeed/fail, hate/love them, get rid of the ones you hate, and just go on with what works for you.

Stay focused on *why* you're learning the language, too. If you lose your drive, it's easier to lose focus and just give up.

There are a ton of resources on this message board, a lot of different approaches to learning, and a lot of arguments over those methods, because everyone is different.

Don't worry about getting it perfect: that's an exercise in chasing your tail and forgetting what you're doing in the first place. Try stuff, dump stuff, keep moving towards your goal.

It is pretty obvious WHAT is to learn: pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary, discourse and the four skills: listening, speaking, reading and writing. But for some reason people usually ignore pronunciation and listening.

As to how - there's only one proper way: your own way.
You might find this instructive:
Splog

Some learning resources: from pronunciation, kana, grammar, etc to audiobooks with parallel e-novels.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid121590

I can only speak for myself, but as far as grammar is concerned I have had a lot of success with having read the Dictionary of basic japanese grammar and then reviewing the contents using pre-made anki decks (one with a sentence for every main point as well as in-depth explanations and another with all the example sentences from the book with translations (around 2000 of them).

The book is expensive but imo explains everything well and in enough detail. I think it and the intermediate grammar book are also more in-depth than Tae Kim's guide.

For vocab Core10k has served me well.

Then again, you can still supplement anything that Tae Kim or any other site lacks in with a google search of what you're looking for. In the digital age it really makes no sense, unless you just like the portability and annotation abilities given by a book, to spend lots of money on something that the internet already provides.

@Imabi
Wow, it must be absolutely fantastic to see a kanji and immediately remember its reading. This world is full of incredible things.

delta Wrote:@Imabi
Wow, it must be absolutely fantastic to see a kanji and immediately remember its reading. This world is full of incredible things.

Well, readings. It's really hard to find a Kanji with just one reading. I know many uncommon readings for a lot of characters given that I also read a LOT of Japanese any given week. My reading skills are much better than all the others.

I also just love Kanji, so I don't know what the neurological reasons for that maybe in tying it with my type of memory. It's very stimulative to see new Kanji and it's easy for me to archive, if you will, information about them in my mind, and I have no problem acquiring new readings as I acquire Korean and Chinese.

But, I don't want any of this knowledge to go to waste. So, that's why I spend so much time trying to learn how to become a better teacher and prepare for the future for when I do finally get that classroom I hope to have. That's why the homepage of my site says that it will always be better today than it was yesterday because I'm always getting better and I greatly care about finding out what's difficult for others and how I can use research and the knowledge I already have to help those individuals.

The big decision after you finish RtK is whether to build up your vocabulary by studying individual words, or by reading example sentences. Each way has its advantages and drawbacks, which you can readily find discussions of in these forums. I would recommend you try each approach for a few days and see what works best for your own learning style.

I say do both at the same time.

I've adopted an iknow.jp-like style of learning vocab. I go through the core 2k/6k with sentences on one side and sentence audio/reading/meaning on the other and any time I come across a new word I add it to a vocab deck. In the vocab deck I have the Kanji/reading/meaning and vocab audio from core.

For each word I make 3 cards, one for Kanji - reading/meaning, one for meaning - Kanji/reading and one for audio only - all 3. I tag any words in here with "cram" and use anki's cram facility to go over the words in a random order a few times a day. When I feel a word is too easy i remove the cram tag so it doesn't appear any more.

Words I have learned this way seem to be sticking a lot better for me than just rote-memorizing the words or just failing sentences over and over until I've memorized the word. I also get the added benefit of being able to recognize the word from listening and also production, which I feel is important for words.