Hi there,

I wanted to send this post for some days now but didn't feel like it, cause I should have figured out the answer to it on my own, but I decided to post it anyway...

Well, from what I understood about on-yomi readings is that there are groups of Kanji that belong to the same, let's say, syllable so when you come across a compound you read it like you were reading hiragana or katakana, syllable to syllable. Right?

Like the word 温泉 the first Kanji belongs to the syllable 'on' and the second 'sen'. So we have ‘onsen’, correct?

Yes that's basically the right idea.

on-yomi are used in ompounds; however there are some compounds that are on-kun and kun-on and so on. And some that are bucked up, like the p in psychology: For instance お土産 which is read "おみやげ".

Generally, reading the onyomi in compounds is correct. Even when knowing only one reading for most of the 700 kanji I can read, I might still guess the correct reading of an unfamiliar compound.

Ask an average Japanese person what these on- or kun-yomi are and the chances are that they will not know - and they don't have to! Why do we?

Inny Jan Wrote:Ask an average Japanese person what these on- or kun-yomi are and the chances are that they will not know - and they don't have to! Why do we?

They know.

@Inny Jan come on that was not an answer.... When someone skilled in a language knows tons of information about the language he is involved doesn't make the above mentioned information useless by the fact that the average native speakers of the language do not know that much about their own speaking....

You don't need to learn them by themself. I find it easiest to just learn at least one compound the kanji is used in, and then I may be able to guess it's reading in other compounds. Also, similar kanji may have similar reading; 先生 せんせい, 男性 だんせい and 高校 こうこう and 交換 こうかん.

kitakitsune Wrote:

Inny Jan Wrote:Ask an average Japanese person what these on- or kun-yomi are and the chances are that they will not know - and they don't have to! Why do we?

They know.

Clearly, our experiences are different.

[Zgarbas]

Inny Jan Wrote:Ask an average Japanese person what these on- or kun-yomi are and the chances are that they will not know - and they don't have to! Why do we?

Chances are that a common person will not know the difference between your and you're, but that doesn't make it OK now does it?

Think about it again - not knowing whether a reading is on- or kun- (classification of concepts) can not be compared to making mistakes of type you're / your (error in writing).

In general, most Japanese people can take a given kanji, out of context or in context, and start listing on and kun readings at will.

Maybe it isn't necessary for JSL learners to have the same level of knowledge - but you really have no idea what you are talking about if you think Japanese people don't know them.

I'm not saying they don't know the reading themselves - I'm saying that they don't know which one is which (and to that extend, why we should care whether it's an on- or kun- ?)

[Zgarbas]

Ah, I see.
Well, chances are they already know the words they're seeing, in which case they don't need to know the individual readings in the first place. They'll know that 先 is さき,生　is なま and 先生 is せんせい without having to think about it.

But take us non-japanese folks. Say you learn them as you go. First you learn that 生 is なま except when it's 生む or 生きる、先 is さき、先生 is せんせい、男性 is だんせい、女性 is じょせい, and so on. You'd always have to learn the new readings for each individual word you encounter since you wouldn't have a basic rule to follow and would always start from the assumption that you don't know which reading to use.

Or you could just learn the kanjis+On/Kun readings and follow the basic "compound is On" rule, and you could start guessing. Sure, you'd have to check, and there are like a gazillion exceptions to the rule, but you'd have a headstart since you could just assume all compounds use On readings and there's a high chance you'd be right. Also, you'd get an uber-head start with 四字熟語 since they tend to always use On readings.

Each with their own way, I guess, but the general assumption that a native doesn't know it, therefore I shouldn't is flawed to begin with. Natives compensate their lack of knowledge about the language with their knowledge of the language.

Yes they know exactly which reading is on and which is kun. And they'll laugh at you too for asking such an easy question.

About why you should know them - this depends on your learning goals, if you want any sort of fluency/literacy approaching native level you need the knowledge but if you just wanted to casually enjoy anime it's not something you need to know.

kitakitsune Wrote:Yes they know exactly which reading is on and which is kun. And they'll laugh at you too for asking such an easy question.

Inny Jan Wrote:Clearly, our experiences are different.

Kitakitsune is 100% right.
Japanese people know which readings are onyomi and which are kunyomi, except with strange cases.　　(Look at materials that native speakers use in elementary/middle/high school to learn kanji--onyomi and kunyomi are distinguished as katakana and hiragana)

"Clearly our experiences are different" is the same lame excuse that TokyoZeplin(sp?) used in his silly youtube video where he argues that Japanese people generally only know 500 kanji.

ya in front of gaijin japanese people will frequently say they don't know how to write or read complex kanji but it's nonsense to make you feel good. they know those dern kanji.

I asked a few (four) of my Japanese friends and they all said they don't know which is kun-yomi and which is on-yomi. However, I tested them and they did in fact know the few kanji I showed them, none had any confidence in getting it right though.
They told me learn these things in school but they forget a lot because it's "totally pointless" knowledge. They can read so they see no point at all trying to identify "this is kun-yomi" or "that is on-yomi".
Not my opinion that's just what they told me.

[Zgarbas]

Isn't that just them being modest and/or not realizing what they do or do not know since they haven't really thought about it?

Yeah they say they don't know when really they do, so I agree it's probably them being modest or not wanting to say "I know it!" then get it wrong if they're not 100%
I never learned the stuff and I can read pretty well so I don't think it's that important but it can't hurt.

dtcamero Wrote:ya in front of gaijin japanese people will frequently say they don't know how to write or read complex kanji but it's nonsense to make you feel good. they know those dern kanji.

The write part is definitely not nonsense.

As for on-yomi/kun-yomi, they probably only say they don't know it because it's not something they think about very often and they haven't really needed to know it since high school. But if you know the language, it's not that hard to figure out which is on and which is kun even if you didn't study it. Of course there are some tricky ones that they might get wrong, but most of them they should be fine on.

I've never tried this, but you might stump people if you asked them what the on-yomi were for 絵, 肉, and 込.

The on-yomi for the first two are so common as standalone words that they could easily be mistaken for kun-yomi. The third one is unusual for having no on-yomi at all.

This is that TokyoZeplin video. It's like hearing scraping nails on a chalkboard.

JimmySeal Wrote:I've never tried this, but you might stump people if you asked them what the on-yomi were for 絵, 肉, and 込.

Yeah, confusing ones. I definitely would have said え was kunyomi. I'm not sure if I would have remembered that にく is onyomi. And I would have said I don't know for the third.

JimmySeal Wrote:I've never tried this, but you might stump people if you asked them what the on-yomi were for 絵, 肉, and 込.

The on-yomi for the first two are so common as standalone words that they could easily be mistaken for kun-yomi. The third one is unusual for having no on-yomi at all.

菊 is another good one.

Although asking for out of context readings is a good way to trip people up in general; even if someone can read 河川 with no problems they may have trouble coming up with the answer if you just ask them out of the blue what the on-yomi of 川 is.