wonderflex Wrote:Anybody have a fix?

Thanks.

Probably made with an earlier version. You can make a new deck by importing Scuda's text file into Anki. (Save it as a Notepad UTF-8 first). It's pretty straightforward. It'd be a basic front/back model however.

I wonder if Scuda's deck has RTK #s and links back to the stories here? Then it might be worth using an earlier version of Anki to open and upgrade the deck. It'd be nice to have a deck available, I'll have a look at it in the morning.

Thora Wrote:

wonderflex Wrote:Anybody have a fix?

Thanks.

Probably made with an earlier version. You can make a new deck by importing Scuda's text file into Anki. (Save it as a Notepad UTF-8 first). It's pretty straightforward. It'd be a basic front/back model however.

I wonder if Scuda's deck has RTK #s and links back to the stories here? Then it might be worth using an earlier version of Anki to open and upgrade the deck. It'd be nice to have a deck available, I'll have a look at it in the morning.

Thanks for trying to help. I think I'm just going to stick with the nice RtK deck and unsuspend cards on the list as I get to them.

Thora- Thank you. I am at the moment working from the pdf but as I marked off the numbers from the kanji lite list I missed the primitive for "mist" entirely.

From a quick check 17,18,24 do appear on the kanji lite list, as you say, so it looks like it is not necessary to consider how to deal with the additional 92 non JLPT kanji.

All in all it might be useful for those starting RTK lite to mention that you will also need to learn the primitives (kanji and non Kanji) from the book -unless this is entirely obvious.

Apart from that, can I express my thanks for staying with me and guiding me through this. It may all seem simple in hindsight but without your help I think I would have called it a day.

Wonderflex, I made a deck anyway. The Anki deck is the same as the shared RTK1&3 with the RTKLite kanji and JLPT2 kanji tagged (1115). Also a RTKList with RTK numbers (and 92 primitives marked). Feel free to email me if you'd like a copy of either. (list as spreadsheet or text).

I'll post it on Anki at some point

Peter-
I've gained a tremendous amount from generous wizards here. So I'm pleased if I can point someone to the info they need. I may have led you astray you in the other thread however - I initially thought you were looking for those 92 extra primitive-kanji.

peterm Wrote:All in all it might be useful for those starting RTK lite to mention that you will also need to learn the primitives (kanji and non Kanji) from the book

I can understand how it's confusing - the information is a bit scattered. Just to be clear on one point, the non-kanji primitives are only in the book. The kanji primitives are part of the reduced RTK set and will show up with all the other JLPT2 kanji. (I guess I'm assuming you are reviewing kanji on this site using Woelpad's script.) Good luck.

Thora- dare I comeback to you with my (presumed) better understanding?

I understand that the non-kanji primitives are only in the book and you explained why this is the case.

The confusion over the additional 92 primitive kanji has also been cleared up.

I thought there was an additional category of kanji primitives which only appear in the book -such as "mist"-and these also need to be studied separately. For that reason I thought I was correct in saying you need to study the primitives in the book- BOTH kanji and non kanji. Am I wrong here?

You don't study them separately, Heisig just explains them. What they mean and how that makes sense. You could say he introduces them, without making them part of the curriculum.

peterm Wrote:I thought there was an additional category of kanji primitives which only appear in the book -such as "mist"-and these also need to be studied separately. For that reason I thought I was correct in saying you need to study the primitives in the book- BOTH kanji and non kanji. Am I wrong here?

There's no third category. "mist" is not a kanji, therefore it falls in the non-kanji primitive category.

I think the source of this misunderstanding is Heisig describing "mist" as a primitive made up of other primitives. Some primitives are composites of other primitives (or of other kanji). This doesn't make them kanji however. If they're in the book with an asterisk instead of a number, then they are not kanji. [edit: at least not for the purposes of RTK1. I think a few of them are actual rarer kanji that you might learn later on. But ignore that fact for now. )

Thora Wrote:Wonderflex, I made a deck anyway. The Anki deck is the same as the shared RTK1&3 with the RTKLite kanji and JLPT2 kanji tagged (1115). Also a RTKList with RTK numbers (and 92 primitives marked). Feel free to email me if you'd like a copy of either. (list as spreadsheet or text).

I'll post it on Anki at some point

Thanks Thora. I have a pretty good working solution for now though, but thank you for the offer.

Also a side question: I read a lot on this forum about techniques, such as this, which are geared towards JLPT2. What types of things task can be completed by somebody who is JLPT2? For example, can you read the majority of text you come accross? Can you watch the majority of television and understand it? I know that it's better than JLPT3 and 4, but is it enough to give you a good functioning foothold on the language?

Sorry, I wish I knew a better way to form what I'm thinking in my head. I'm just trying to figure out the types of things a person can do with the skills needed to pass that test, and if the gap betwee somebody who is JLPT1 is substantially over somebody who is a 2, 3 or 4.

wonderflex Wrote:

Thora Wrote:Wonderflex, I made a deck anyway. The Anki deck is the same as the shared RTK1&3 with the RTKLite kanji and JLPT2 kanji tagged (1115). Also a RTKList with RTK numbers (and 92 primitives marked). Feel free to email me if you'd like a copy of either. (list as spreadsheet or text).

I'll post it on Anki at some point

Thanks Thora. I have a pretty good working solution for now though, but thank you for the offer.

Also a side question: I read a lot on this forum about techniques, such as this, which are geared towards JLPT2. What types of things task can be completed by somebody who is JLPT2? For example, can you read the majority of text you come accross? Can you watch the majority of television and understand it? I know that it's better than JLPT3 and 4, but is it enough to give you a good functioning foothold on the language?

Sorry, I wish I knew a better way to form what I'm thinking in my head. I'm just trying to figure out the types of things a person can do with the skills needed to pass that test, and if the gap betwee somebody who is JLPT1 is substantially over somebody who is a 2, 3 or 4.

JLPT2 is officially considered "business level" Japanese. You're supposedly supposed to be able to function in a business situation using Japanese at that level. Unfortunately, real life isn't so pretty. However yes, the level difference is quite enormous. I passed JLPT3 with 95% before I even had a chance at passing JLPT2.

I'd say that to be able to go and take a JLPT2 test, without studying for it, and getting a good score, you have to be quite fabulous at Japanese. Can you read the majority of a text you come across? Yeah. Understand the majority of TV? No. Understand enough to enjoy TV? Yeah, probably.

You should think of it like this:
JLPT4 and 3: Basic Japanese, shows you've taken basic classes in Japanese. Think of someone currently studying Japanese at a college.
JLPT2: Can read manga, novels. Can read a newspaper decently.
JLPT1: Can read academic works and high-level literature.

That's basically how the grammar is split up at least. JLPT4 and 3 contain the basic everyday stuff, JLPT2 contains a lot of grammar you only run into in formal or written texts. JLPT1 includes grammar which you will almost never come across outside of very specific situations.

Tobberoth Wrote:JLPT2 is officially considered "business level" Japanese. You're supposedly supposed to be able to function in a business situation using Japanese at that level. Unfortunately, real life isn't so pretty. However yes, the level difference is quite enormous. I passed JLPT3 with 95% before I even had a chance at passing JLPT2.

I'd say that to be able to go and take a JLPT2 test, without studying for it, and getting a good score, you have to be quite fabulous at Japanese. Can you read the majority of a text you come across? Yeah. Understand the majority of TV? No. Understand enough to enjoy TV? Yeah, probably.

You should think of it like this:
JLPT4 and 3: Basic Japanese, shows you've taken basic classes in Japanese. Think of someone currently studying Japanese at a college.
JLPT2: Can read manga, novels. Can read a newspaper decently.
JLPT1: Can read academic works and high-level literature.

That's basically how the grammar is split up at least. JLPT4 and 3 contain the basic everyday stuff, JLPT2 contains a lot of grammar you only run into in formal or written texts. JLPT1 includes grammar which you will almost never come across outside of very specific situations.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Now I don't think it's odd to be skipping over 3 and 4. Two really seems like a good place to start aiming my sights on.

wonderflex Wrote:Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Now I don't think it's odd to be skipping over 3 and 4. Two really seems like a good place to start aiming my sights on.

Definitely, but you should try to get ahold of JLPT4 and 3 tests as you progress so you can test your skill. You will definitely be able to pass them LONG before you get close to JLPT2, and it's quite nice to know (as a motivator).

Thora- I'm with you now. Thanks for answering without a hint of irritation although
I can understand if you felt that way.

Nah - I save that for the deserving scoundrels around here

I have uploaded a new version which fixes the failed kanji page, includes Oniichan's KO 2001 list and speeds up moving to the next failed kanji after pressing the Learned button.

I have not been able to reproduce the reported behavior whereby the first reviewed kanji is wrong. I suggest that if you encounter this to either wait a second or two (could be the javascript that is slow to execute) or reload the page.

About Oniichan's list, I'd appreciate it if I could get the original 1110 kanji list, not the one messed up with the 92 primitive kanji for RTK Lite, as just mixing these without regard to whether they are needed or not is the wrong way to go about it. So either give me the full original list (numbers or kanji) or tell me which of the 92 are in KO 2001 so that I can find and eliminate the others. From there I'll figure out which kanji really deserve to be added, and then publish the amended script. I mailed Oniichan a few days ago, no reaction yet.

For those already using Oniichan's script, you can switch to my script, then go to the My Profile page on kanji.koohii.com and select 2001.Kanji.Odyssey from the drop-down list in the GreaseMonkey section. Reviews should not be impacted.

Any other issues that Thora not already deftly handled? To nest0r, I suggest you log in to the beta site at http://test.koohii.com/ and try out the new Manage tab. There are no predefined lists available yet, but there's been some talk about it already, so who knows. Otherwise I can imagine myself rewriting the script to take advantage of the new features.

I don't understand. What's the difference between Oniichan's/Woel's newest version based on KO and the earlier lists?

Edit: I actually installed the Woel's script. New question: For someone with 1120 RTK kanji and nothing else should I toggle RTK Lite or the KO option when using Woel's script? I plan do SRS + Tae Kim and/or KO afterward and then real media.

Edit 2: How does this script affect expired and failed cards? Does it filter kanji from those too (say if someone untoggled it and added + failed 50 kanji and then re-toggled)?

If you're aiming to do KO, select KO. If your aim is JLPT2, select RTK Lite.

Still haven't heard back from Oniichan. Is there someone else who can send me a list containing all kanji from KO book I and II, and only those?

Well it's both, because I plan to reach for JLPT 2 or 1 level, and KO because it's usually along the suggested learning path for after RTK. I'm just trying to use it as a general RTK substitute.

[Katsuo]

This spreadsheet includes KO data. If you have Excel or similar, it's easy to isolate the KO data.

To answer Edit 2:

Toggling and untoggling (with which I think you mean switching back and forth between the regular Heisig list and another list of your choice like KO) makes no sense. Once you selected a list and indicated how many kanji you already did in Heisig order before the switch, stick with it throughout. If you want a slightly different order, you will need to edit the script itself, adding in or removing the frame numbers in the place you want. Do this only for kanji that haven't been added to the review pile yet. The reason is, if you add or remove a kanji that is already under review, all the frames after it will move up and kanji will end up in the wrong stacks and scheduled at the wrong moment. E.g. if you add a kanji in spot 20, it will end up in the stack of what was previously frame 20, while the previous kanji for frame 20, which now is frame 21, will be in frame 21's stack, and so on. A big mess.

Edit: Thanks Katsuo. I'll check it out later.

ryuudou Wrote:Well it's both, because I plan to reach for JLPT 2 or 1 level, and KO because it's usually along the suggested learning path for after RTK. I'm just trying to use it as a general RTK substitute.

I suggest you start out with KO, since that is what you'll be doing next. I can check which kanji you're missing out for JLPT2 after that. You could then edit the KO list or select and review them in Anki or wait for the release of the new koohii website, where it's much easier to add frames out of order. Or do as was originally intended: Learn the rest of Heisig in a second block of about 900 characters after you finished KO. In that case you can just continue to use the script from where you left off.

I love you Woel, though the afterward part is a bit confusing. I think you're saying I should study the rest of the JLPT2 kanji after I finish RTK lite and then KO, but I was under the impression I would learn them as they come up in my studies. It's a bit off topic, but there's no difference between doing RTK -> KO and RTK Lite KO edition -> KO, and the other kanji would only matter for other material right?

As far as your response about the script I understand what you're saying but I'm still a little confused on how the script filters the kanji, but it's probably because I haven't used it yet. Does it filter the kanji in my expired stacks?

woelpad Wrote:I have not been able to reproduce the reported behavior whereby the first reviewed kanji is wrong. I suggest that if you encounter this to either wait a second or two (could be the javascript that is slow to execute) or reload the page.

Just to say I am still seeing this behaviour - waiting a few seconds doesn't seem to help. If I can help with debugging this - or you need more info from me, do let me know.

fugu68 Wrote:

woelpad Wrote:I have not been able to reproduce the reported behavior whereby the first reviewed kanji is wrong. I suggest that if you encounter this to either wait a second or two (could be the javascript that is slow to execute) or reload the page.

Just to say I am still seeing this behaviour - waiting a few seconds doesn't seem to help. If I can help with debugging this - or you need more info from me, do let me know.

Does it always occur or only from time to time? Does reloading help?

Are there any other scripts active on that page? If so, turn them off and check if it's still happening.

Also check the error console (in the Tools menu) for any bold-faced error messages.

ryuudou Wrote:I love you Woel, though the afterward part is a bit confusing. I think you're saying I should study the rest of the JLPT2 kanji after I finish RTK lite and then KO, but I was under the impression I would learn them as they come up in my studies. It's a bit off topic, but there's no difference between doing RTK -> KO and RTK Lite KO edition -> KO, and the other kanji would only matter for other material right?

I think we have a naming conflict here. For me, RTK Lite is one selection/sequence of Heisig frames, based on the JLPT2 list; KO is a different selection/sequence of Heisig frames, based on the KO books I and II. And RTK is the original sequence of Heisig frames (books I and perhaps III). Note that the script is called "Alter Sequence", not "RTK Lite". RTK Lite just happens to be the first/most popular sequence.

So are you saying that doing the KO book after RTK I (no script involved) is the same as doing the KO book after going through the KO sequence with the help of my script? RTK I has about double as much frames and does not cover all kanji in KO (some are in RTK III, some not). Plus it's probable that in the example sentences in KO you will encounter kanji that are not part of the KO study set, but which may well be in RTK I. So yes, there is a difference.

ryuudou Wrote:As far as your response about the script I understand what you're saying but I'm still a little confused on how the script filters the kanji, but it's probably because I haven't used it yet. Does it filter the kanji in my expired stacks?

Read Reply #49.

Thora Wrote:That Woel - lovin 'n leavin

Have I ever left you? Have we ever been together? Memories fade so fast...