toshiromiballza Wrote:

raharney Wrote:The answer is down to a fluke of history: Tokogawa's decision to ban it.

And thank "God" he did!

Are you serious? You think banning religions is a good thing? Scary!

raharney Wrote:Are you serious? You think banning religions is a good thing? Scary!

Yes, banning Christianity at that time was a logical move and the best thing that could have happened to Japan. Nobody wants foreigners imposing foreign religions and traditions onto a native population, especially not religions and traditions that are the polar opposites of their own.

For the very same reason, the EU should ban Islam, but instead they're bringing in hundreds of thousands more Muslims every year.

Great idea!

toshiromiballza Wrote:

raharney Wrote:Are you serious? You think banning religions is a good thing? Scary!

Yes, banning Christianity at that time was a logical move and the best thing that could have happened to Japan. Nobody wants foreigners imposing foreign religions and traditions onto a native population, especially not religions and traditions that are the polar opposites of their own.

For the very same reason, the EU should ban Islam, but instead they're bringing in hundreds of thousands more Muslims every year.

Great idea!

So was Buddhism coming to Japan in the 6th Century OK but Christianity in the 16th Century not OK? When did the clock stop for you? Which century?

As for you anti-Muslim comment :mad:...well, I think bigots like you would have got on just fine in totalitarian Tokugawa.

raharney Wrote:So was Buddhism ok in 6th Century Japan but Christianity not ok in 16th Century Japan. When did the clock stop for you? Which century?

By the time Christianity started imposing itself, Buddhism was already accepted, though of course there were people who objected to it in its initial stages (and even later and today). There was no place for yet another foreign religion trying to become numero uno. Banning it saved them. Likewise, Christianity was a foreign religion and culture that started imposing itself onto Europe, but after several centuries (and after millions were massacred) it got accepted and is now part of Europe, just like Buddhism is part of Japan.

raharney Wrote:As for you anti-Muslim comment :mad:...well, I think bigots like you would have got on just fine in totalitarian Tokugawa.

Sorry, your worthless politically correct terms have no effect on me or other rational people. Islam has no business in Europe, especially not with the mass immigration of Muslims who will become the majority in 50 years, thus eventually turn Europe into Europastan. If not banning Islam, this mass immigration must be stopped.

Imagine Japan becoming a Muslim country. Absolutely terrible, and they are not bigots for opposing it, nor am I a bigot for opposing Europe turning into Europastan.

toshiromiballza Wrote:By the time Christianity started imposing itself, Buddhism was already accepted, though of course there were people who objected to it in its initial stages (and even later and today). There was no place for yet another foreign religion trying to become numero uno. Banning it saved them. Likewise, Christianity was a foreign religion and culture that started imposing itself onto Europe, but after several centuries (and after millions were massacred) it got accepted and is now part of Europe, just like Buddhism is part of Japan.

Your views are incoherent. You say religions should never, ever spread across national boundaries (now there's an anachronism) at any time in history but if they do, and they succeed, well then that is fine, they are "accepted". And any other alternative auslander religions are unacceptable.

Muddled mind, closed heart.

raharney Wrote:Your views are incoherent.

Not at all.

raharney Wrote:You say religions should never, ever spread across national boundaries (now there's an anachronism) at any time in history but if they do, and they succeed, well then that is fine.

No it's not "fine," but it is what it is and is undoable without some religious war. Thankfully this didn't happen in Japan with Christianity.

It's not "fine" that Christianity established itself in Europe, but it is what it is. And the Muslims have tried to take over in the past, though luckily without any success except for Albania and Bosnia, but they're doing it again, and this time without even raising a sword, because the EU is practically enabling them. Islam will become the major religion of (Western) Europe, and you have no bloody right to call me a "bigot" if I oppose this transformation. You're basically telling me: "just give up and take it up the a** like a good loser." Just GTFO.

raharney Wrote:Muddled mind, closed heart.

Look in the mirror.

Also, I nominate this thread for closure.

toshiromiballza Wrote:It's not "fine" that Christianity established itself in Europe, but it is what it is. And the Muslims have tried to take over in the past, though luckily without any success except for Albania and Bosnia, but they're doing it again, and this time without even raising a sword, because the EU is practically enabling them. Islam will become the major religion of (Western) Europe, and you have no bloody right to call me a "bigot" if I oppose this transformation. You're basically telling me: "just give up and take it up the a** like a good loser." Just GTFO.

If Muslims come and obey the constitution and liberal democratic values of the EU (which most of them do, go talk to a few if you don't believe me) then what's your worry.
My guess is that you will start now giving me random tabloid anecdotes about the minority that don't.
But judging a group by it worst minority is, well, bigoted.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about and are just as brainwashed as the rest of the braindead EU politicians. I'm done talking to such ignoramuses.

toshiromiballza Wrote:Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about and are just as brainwashed as the rest of the braindead EU politicians. I'm done talking to such ignoramuses.

So what are you going to do instead? Beat the crap out of us?

raharney Wrote:So what are you going to do instead? Beat the crap out of us?

No, somebody else will do that for you and your descendants. Don't come asking for help when they do, though.

undead_saif Wrote:I'd say most people don't even understand evolution and how sure scientists are of it, this is my observation from samples on the Internet and real life, no hard facts. There's too much superstition around that I'm constantly amazed how some people can believe somethings without weighting them in their logic!
So I don't think that's a good reason.

Most people have no idea how science works at all. I think for most people they think it works something like.

Idea -> Science(?) -> Indisputable Facts


@toshiromiballza
Ok I want to understand your position. Are the religions bad or just some of them sometime? Or are you against religions that seem to still be more extremist, hence earlier Christians being banned in Japan was good. But now they have calmed down in Europe, and Islam is the religion with more extremists, so should be banned from Europe?

Is it something like all religions bad, but if one already has a foothold for god's sake don't throw another in the mix. Don't throw a turd in the piss soup type of thing? (not singling any religion out as either one)

Goody, another run out of the mill religious debate. Haven't seen one of those here in a while.

Can we agree that it is a good thing religions have never invaded Japan for at least 2 reasons:

1) Most countries on Earth are religious. So for the sake of variety, Japan should not be.
2) Most or all developed Christian-based societies are carbon copies of each other in terms of culture (USA, Canada, England, Australia, etc are all the same. They eat the same food, listen to the same music and watch the same movies). For the sake of variety, Japan should not be.

undead_saif Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:I do believe that peoples knowledge of science and theories of evolution and such makes it very hard for new religions to penetrate. Even a hundred years ago people were likely nowhere near as close to as educated as they are today.

I'd say most people don't even understand evolution and how sure scientists are of it, this is my observation from samples on the Internet and real life, no hard facts. There's too much superstition around that I'm constantly amazed how some people can believe somethings without weighting them in their logic!
So I don't think that's a good reason.

Correct, lots of uneducated people don't understand what evolution is. For many its an unfortunate lack of education by choice as it goes against pre-existing beliefs.

Scientists are extremely sure of it. There isn't a debate left to be had.

Though wait I can't remember, were you the christian dude who wanted to go on a "mission" to Japan to convert lots of people? Maybe it was someone else. Because *if* it was you, and since you are getting all of your belief system through a single book, I'm absolutely appalled you could write something like this with any sincerity whatsoever:

Quote:There's too much superstition around that I'm constantly amazed how some people can believe somethings without weighting them in their logic!

There is almost no logic to Christianity apart from "that's what my parents taught me when I grew up". Anyone who weighs any religion by logic should naturally conclude its total nonsense. Always.

blackbrich Wrote:@toshiromiballza
Ok I want to understand your position. Are the religions bad or just some of them sometime?

Not all religions are bad, i.e., Buddhism, but all Abrahamic religions should be obliterated from the face of the earth, together with their buildings. I don't care how pretty a cathedral is, use the exterior as an outside shell, but build a hospital inside it instead.

blackbrich Wrote:Or are you against religions that seem to still be more extremist, hence earlier Christians being banned in Japan was good. But now they have calmed down in Europe, and Islam is the religion with more extremists, so should be banned from Europe?

I'd ban Christianity in Europe too, but yes, since Christians are relatively calm these days after they've successfully murdered and converted half of the world's population in the previous centuries, and now the uneducated third world Muslim immigrants have started mass immigrating into Europe, all thanks to the braindead EU liberals and leftists, the focus is on stopping Islam obviously. It is a fact that due to the low (and ever lower) native European birthrate, which is 3-4x times behind those of third world immigrants (who just keep coming), European demographics will change dramatically over the next 30 years. Some of those EU morons even think this mass third world immigration is good precisely because the European birthrate is so low! I recently saw a BBC documentary about Japan, on the topic of their population decline, low birthrates, etc., and the narrator suggested that mass immigration might be the answer! What bullsh*t! Can you imagine walking around Kyoto but none of the people are Japanese, but Nigerian and Pakistani? Terrible, but that's exactly what Paris and London are like! Thankfully the Japanese aren't mentally retarded or plagued by Social Marxists and political correctness, so they're never going to implement a program of self-genocide like we Europeans have. Meanwhile, the liberals and leftists in Europe all think this mass immigration is so wonderful, "diversity is our strength!," but they're too braindead to realize once the Muslims become a majority, they can say good-bye to their precious liberalism, democracy or even their own minority rights! Go ask some of the Muslim immigrants what the "minority rights" look like in their native countries, or how "tolerant" they are of non-Muslims in their "democratic" and "liberal" countries . They accuse me of being a "bigot," "racist," "not respecting the rights of minorities," "discriminating," blah, blah, blah, all the while they're too stupid to realize they're cheering on the destruction of Europe as we know it. And some of the most hateful ones (those on the far-left) think this is a good thing, because of all the past actions of Europeans, "we deserve it!" Two wrongs don't make a right, cretins. Others think all these millions upon millions of third world immigrants will "integrate" into our society, adopt our moral values, our culture... What absolute idiots! There is no other word for such ignorant imbeciles.

blackbrich Wrote:Don't throw a turd in the piss soup type of thing?

Kinda. The Muslims can keep their turd in their own countries and do whatever they want there, I'm not going to judge at all, but this has to stop in Europe. Native Americans have fought and opposed the Christian extremists when they came to spread their religion, and so did all the other natives that were eventually colonized. A great majority of them are now Christian themselves - the religion of the colonizers. Nobody will or has ever accused them of being "bigots" for trying to stop the massive colonization and religious transformation, and likewise I expect not to be called a "bigot" by the moronic leftists for trying to prevent the very same thing happening in Europe! Those hypocrites with their double-standards piss me off, telling me I should "simply accept it." No, I won't, because I'm not a spineless good-for-nothing excuse for a human being like them.

NightSky Wrote:Though wait I can't remember, were you the christian dude who wanted to go on a "mission" to Japan to convert lots of people? Maybe it was someone else. Because *if* it was you, and since you are getting all of your belief system through a single book, I'm absolutely appalled you could write something like this with any sincerity whatsoever:...

I believe you are talking about igordesu. Though I made a post once that showed my strong conviction on God. I had some replies against being religious which I cut extremely short and immediately stopped a religious fight. I think I can say that I'm proud of myself also when I was religious back then in 2009

In reply to the rest of what you wrote, I can tell you that I don't say what I don't do

raharney Wrote:If Muslims come and obey the constitution and liberal democratic values of the EU (which most of them do, go talk to a few if you don't believe me) then what's your worry.
My guess is that you will start now giving me random tabloid anecdotes about the minority that don't.
But judging a group by it worst minority is, well, bigoted.

I think his issue is with the religion, regardless of the people. So it seems he discriminate on base of religion without giving people a chance to present themselves, another discriminator I guess!

toshiromiballza Wrote:Not all religions are bad, i.e., Buddhism,

There will always be conflict based on religion, Buddhism is no exception (now don't tell me they are a small fraction, the violence is based on the difference of beliefs, and there's other examples), many people, especially the uneducated, are insecure to accept people with different beliefs, religions or other beliefs. So at least be true to your idea till the end.

BTW toshiromiballza, there are many liberal Muslims, Secular Muslims (see what happened to Turkey) and Muslims who interpret Islam in a softer way, a way that fit nicely into western culture, why don't you support them instead of your hate speech?

undead_saif Wrote:I think his issue is with the religion, regardless of the people.

It's both. Just like I don't want Japan going into multicultural mode and replace their population with Africans and Middle-Easterners, I don't want the same thing happening in Europe. Unfortunately, European politicians (and people) have let this happen and are sponsoring our own extinction by way of mass immigration and population replacement. The Japanese on the other hand are intelligent enough to not commit ethno-suicide. And no, it's not me (or the Japanese) who's the "bigot," I want to preserve the world's diversity, it's pro-multiculturalism people who are the actual bigots, whose goal is (or simply don't care if this happens - which is happening) to blend all the people together and remove all traces of diversity. A truly sickening mindset. It's like forcing all Bonobos and Chimpanzees to breed together; who needs two kinds of apes when one does the trick, right?

undead_saif Wrote:There will always be conflict based on religion, Buddhism is no exception

That "conflict" is self-defence, a response to the primitivism of Islam. There is nothing wrong with what the Buddhists are doing, and I respect them even more for standing up to Islam. The fact that somebody as peaceful as Buddhist monks take a violent stand against Islam should be enough to tell you how "great" Islam is. Not even Buddhist monks can tolerate them, and you're expecting Europeans to be tolerant? Pff, call me a "bigot" any day over tolerating Islam.

undead_saif Wrote:BTW toshiromiballza, there are many liberal Muslims, Secular Muslims (see what happened to Turkey) and Muslims who interpret Islam in a softer way, a way that fit nicely into western culture, why don't you support them instead of your hate speech?

Yeah, because these are the third world immigrants we're importing into Europe on a daily basis, right? Liberal and secular (what?) Muslims. Which fairytale do you live in? Sounds like a nice place. I won't support any Muslims, not even "those who interpret Islam in a softer way," at least not in Europe. It's only a matter of time before one of them decides to follow a different "path" and gets a bigger following, and we're back at step one. They can do whatever they want - BACK HOME.

toshiromiballza Wrote:Not all religions are bad, i.e., Buddhism

Wow! Do you have any idea what is happening in Burma at the moment?
Such naivety!
All religions (and non-religious ideologies) can be bad and have been bad given the circumstances. This is so obvious!

toshiromiballza Wrote:And no, it's not me (or the Japanese) who's the "bigot," I want to preserve the world's diversity, it's pro-multiculturalism people who are the actual bigots, whose goal is (or simply don't care if this happens - which is happening) to blend all the people together and remove all traces of diversity.

You clearly have no idea what bigot means. So let me educate you:

Quote:bigot : : a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

The fuller definition:

Quote:: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

toshiromiballza Wrote:That "conflict" is self-defence, a response to the primitivism of Islam. There is nothing wrong with what the Buddhists are doing, and I respect them even more for standing up to Islam. The fact that somebody as peaceful as Buddhist monks take a violent stand against Islam should be enough to tell you how "great" Islam is. Not even Buddhist monks can tolerate them, and you're expecting Europeans to be tolerant? Pff, call me a "bigot" any day over tolerating Islam.

This is blame-the-victim misinformation on a scale that Stalin and Hitler would have loved.

But I think we have won the argument here, Mr. toshimiballza. We have PROVED you are a bigot.
Because for you:

Muslims: whether good or bad, are always bad
Buddhists: whether good or bad, are always good.

You have no argument. You are a bigot, Comrade toshiromiballza.

I would call him a troll, but then I've met a few Europeans with an almost pathological hatred toward Turks which is only a few steps away from the kind of lynch mobs the US South use to have for lynching blacks.

vix86 Wrote:I would call him a troll, but then I've met a few Europeans with an almost pathological hatred toward Turks which is only a few steps away from the kind of lynch mobs the US South use to have for lynching blacks.

At one point I thought he was just trolling because his prejudices are so outlandish and old-fashioned. But he is serious.
This could be a trend now in Europe. Expect real monsters (not just virtual trolls) in the next European Parliament.

raharney Wrote:Yes, how happy that State Shinto succeeded.
Atheism could have succeeded as well in Japan. At least in the top half, if Stalin had got his way in 1945. I'm sure The People's Republic of Hokkaido would have been so happy about that.

I'm confused about what exactly you're trying to say here. Doesn't he mean that he's happy that contemporary Japan is not Christian? He's not arguing that the means that led there were just or anything like that.

I'm also happy that Japan is largely not religious, but then again I come from a country that is religious in a really annoying way (America).

Tzadeck Wrote:

raharney Wrote:Yes, how happy that State Shinto succeeded.
Atheism could have succeeded as well in Japan. At least in the top half, if Stalin had got his way in 1945. I'm sure The People's Republic of Hokkaido would have been so happy about that.

I'm confused about what exactly you're trying to say here. Doesn't he mean that he's happy that contemporary Japan is not Christian? He's not arguing that the means that led there were just or anything like that.

I'm also happy that Japan is largely not religious, but then again I come from a country that is religious in a really annoying way (America).

I am saying that picking out one religion and saying this religion is the bad one is a naive reading of history and smacks of subtle sectarianism.
If Japan had become Christian it is hard to see how it would have made the country any better or worse.
And your point about Japan not being largely religious is slightly irrelevant. "Christian" Western Europe is not really religious either. The Christianity thing makes no difference in this case.

raharney Wrote:I am saying that picking out one religion and saying this religion is the bad one is a naive reading of history and smacks of subtle sectarianism.

That's fine, but I don't see how you're getting it out of his post (which was only one line, right?)

raharney Wrote:If Japan had become Christian it is hard to see how it would have made the country any better or worse.

Well, you would have more people in Japan that believe stuff that is not true. How it would make Japan better or worse in other ways (economic, social, political, etc.) is hard to say, but as long as you're talking about truth the spread of Christianity to Japan would be a bad influence.

Tzadeck Wrote:

raharney Wrote:If Japan had become Christian it is hard to see how it would have made the country any better or worse.

Well, you would have more people in Japan that believe stuff that is not true. How it would make Japan better or worse in other ways (economic, social, political, etc.) is hard to say, but as long as you're talking about truth the spread of Christianity to Japan would be a bad influence.

Are you a Confucianist or Buddhist or Shinto fundamentalist? Why do you think Christianity-less Edo Japan had a better monopoly on truth than the heathen Occident?