JimmySeal Wrote:

SammyB Wrote:A sense of purpose, community involvement, friendship, moral guidelines, "forgiveness", "eternal life", etc. are all pretty meaningless to everyone (not just "the average Japanese person") if Christianity isn't true... Right?

No, the first 4 can definitely be meaningful even if Christianity isn't true. And you're just twisting Akiynaro's words. S/he was talking about why Japanese people would or would not be drawn to Christianity based on the the purported benefits it has, not whether all of those benefits actually exist, and present an actual value to anyone.

I see your point and I guess I didn't express myself properly. Of course they can be meaningful regardless of the truth of Christianity... But I meant specifically in the context of being sole motivators for a decision to become a Christian. I was trying to say that in this situation, wouldn't they become "irrelevant" to anyone, not just a Japanese person, if Christianity itself isn't true? Does that make more sense?

I wasn't trying to twist anyone's words... I'm just trying to understand the train of thought. I very much understood that Akiynaro's statement was to do with whether Japanese people would or would not be drawn to Christianity based on the "purported benefits", as you put it.

But my question still stands:

Why are these supposed "benefits" ---- e.g. sense of purpose, community involvement, friendship, moral guidelines, "forgiveness", "eternal life", blah blah.. LESS relevant or appealing to Japanese people than to anyone else?

JimmySeal Wrote:Because the west doesn't have many other institutions that fill the role that Christianity does. Akiynaro's hypothesis is that Japan already has those, hence Christianity's difficulty in getting a foothold.

This is the hypothesis that I don't find convincing.

If there is one thing I have learnt about the Japanese, it is that they really don't like being told what to do, as a country, by the West. Just try talking to any Japanese about the whaling problem and you will see this as clear as day. I suspect this same attitude would arise in relation to Christianity.

Another factor would be the socio-economic differences (or lack of) between the West and Japan. Most countries that were successful converted to Christianity in the past were fairly poor, backward places, who were probably in awe of the West's vastly superior economic and military prowess. Japan is not and has never really been in that position.

I guess you could compare the failure of Christianity to take hold in Japan to the failure of Islam, Buddhism et al to take hold in the West (other than through immigration). Regardless of the ultimate "truth" of these religions, what is in it for a Western person to convert exactly?

SammyB Wrote:I don't find your overall theory very convincing. I think a much simpler (but probably not popular) explanation is: there aren't more Christians in Japan because most people in Japan don't know what Christianity is, and have not personally had significant interactions with a Christian person.

Thus, an informed decision about whether to become a Christian or not is not even a decision that the vast majority of Japanese people will ever have to make.

Not sure about that explanation either, since Christian ceremony is wide spread among Japanese. Many (if not most) couples have a Christian style wedding, where they will hear Christian stories... say their vows etc. People go to Christian school in Japan too. Still, they mostly will not convert. Christianity is just another god, among millions.

For example my wife's grandfather was thinking about converting, and as head of the house he could have done that, but at the end of the day there is tradition to preserve in a family, and ancestors in family's graveyard and so on. Changing to Christianity would not only break from that tradition but would also be difficult.

SammyB Wrote:I don't really understand why it's any more or less relevant to Japanese people than anyone else... What exactly is there to gain by converting to Christianity in "Western countries" that you wouldn't gain in Japan?
...
Thus, an informed decision about whether to become a Christian or not is not even a decision that the vast majority of Japanese people will ever have to make.

Um... an informed decision about whether to become a Christian or not is not even a decision that the majority of westerners will ever have to make.
The vast majority of people do not "choose" Christianity, they are indoctrinated in it from birth.

Seriously, how many people do you know who grew up in an athiest household and then chose Christianity?

Zarxrax Wrote:Seriously, how many people do you know who grew up in an athiest household and then chose Christianity?

You'd be amazed actually. In most cases I expect their is some social aspect to it. That is people adopt it in order to enter the christian lifestyle and community that goes along with it...

In the case of Japan though, christians are a minority and aren't part of a 'superior' culture so there isn't much to be gained by membership in the club.

Quote:Seriously, how many countries in the past century have assimilated a drastically different religion? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Many countries have had new religions brought in by immigrants, but you don't have very many countries converting current masses to a new religion, in this era.

This is what baffles me about the Korean case. How can a 1/3 of the population of a country in the second half of the 20th century be converted en mass to another religion in which they have no deep roots and no historical or cultural ties or affinities?

[Zgarbas]

In 1990, once Communism and the ban on religions fell and people were generally confused about things, missionaries from all sorts of religions started popping up in order to take advantage of the people who were unsure about everything.
in less than 10 years these religious groups got to almost 10% of the population. Christianity also suddenly became a big thing and the church is very tied to the state these days.

So yeah, it's easy. Find someone who needs something stable to hang on to, and you got yourself a potential member.

(Maybe if the American occupation was handled differently Christianity would've stood a chance in Japan)

Zgarbas Wrote:In 1990, once Communism and the ban on religions fell and people were generally confused about things, missionaries from all sorts of religions started popping up in order to profit from the general people who were unsure about everything.
in less than 10 years these religious groups got to almost 10% of the population. Christianity also suddenly became a big thing and the church is very ties to the state these days.

So yeah, it's easy. Find someone who needs something stable to hang on to, and you got yourself a potential member.

Good point. Taking advantage of certain things can greatly boost the process. This reminded me of Africa, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianit...rica_today , where missionaries take advantage of the lack of health care and education, look how much it grew in the last century and the estimate in 2025, from 9 million to 380 , and to 633, respectively. Don't forget the northern African countries aren't affected that much.

Zgarbas Wrote:(Maybe if the American occupation was handled differently Christianity would've stood a chance in Japan)

No it wouldn't have. There wasn't a void of religion in Japan. They had Shinto and Buddhism still in Japan, they weren't without religion. In the USSR the state pushed atheism, but I find it pretty hard to believe that people just up and miraculously forgot about religion. People probably fell into step with the state publicly but probably still held on to the only religion they have ever known privately, which was some form of Christianity (Eastern Orthodox?). So after the collapse they just returned to how it always was.

[Zgarbas]

vix86 Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:(Maybe if the American occupation was handled differently Christianity would've stood a chance in Japan)

No it wouldn't have. There wasn't a void of religion in Japan. They had Shinto and Buddhism still in Japan, they weren't without religion. In the USSR the state pushed atheism, but I find it pretty hard to believe that people just up and miraculously forgot about religion. People probably fell into step with the state publicly but probably still held on to the only religion they have ever known privately, which was some form of Christianity (Eastern Orthodox?). So after the collapse they just returned to how it always was.

(yep, Eastern orthodox)
Religion wasn't that big of a thing before the war. It was to a good part of the population who secretly kept practicing it all throughout Communism, but not the majority. It got big because it was banned . After Communism the main church used the fact that it was banned to get a boost in image, and suddenly 90% of the population was gladly declaring itself Orthodox just because they could. And stuffing themselves to death with bananas. It's a weird process. Pretty similar to how Orthodoxy was always important to people in Transylvania since we had a few centuries of it being persecuted by the Catholics. The places where Orthodoxy always was free to practice were always/still are more lax about it.

I didn't necessarily mean a void in religion; people after the war are basically the easiest target for religious conversions. Americans made themselves hated during the occupation, so there was no reason for people to look to the West for filling that void.

(speaking of Christianity persecuting small towns, the first Japanese person in Romania was a missionary for the Penticostal church. He left Japan because he was ostracized for being penticostal. Never looked much into how common that situation is, but it happens)

Zarxrax Wrote:Um... an informed decision about whether to become a Christian or not is not even a decision that the majority of westerners will ever have to make.

Exactly. Which is why the majority of Westerners are not Christians either.

Quote:The vast majority of people do not "choose" Christianity, they are indoctrinated in it from birth.

If it's not "chosen" then it's not Christianity...

Zgarbas Wrote:Americans made themselves hated during the occupation, so there was no reason for people to look to the West for filling that void.

Can you explain this a bit? I took a bit of Japanese history, but I remember the reaction to the occupation as being way more mild than I would have expected given the circumstances. But I could easily be wrong, as history is not a hobby of mine.

[Zgarbas]

When we had a Japanese guy explain Japanese history he put it very mildly, saying that the occupation was non-intrusive and spent less than 30 seconds expanding on that(never a good idea to say anything anti-american when you're a public figure, and all that). Fairly sure it didn't leave a great enough mark to last in today's society, aside from Okinawa maybe. Compared to other postwar occupations it was pretty mild, don't get me wrong.

They were pretty much busy eradicating old Japanese values, telling them how to behave, raping their women to the point where prostitution was legalized, trying to reform their language, and so on. Not the kind of guys whose religious values you'd want to adopt . Especially in a society from whose point of view did nothing wrong*. Of course, the Japanese people learned to shut up and swallow since they realized that's the best way to handle it.

*I'd really like to avoid any thorough WW2 discussions since they make me sad; not saying they didn't do anything wrong, just that from their point of view they didn't, or at least not wrong enough to be bombed and then occupied.

My biggest question about the occupation was whether it had the huge negative impact that people think something like it would have. Generally many countries don't take kindly to having another country in theirs. It tends to leave lasting wounds in the culture; just look at the relations between Japan and China/Korea today still.

But if you look at relationships between the US and Japan; its been very very friendly through the past century almost. Okinawa aside (not that many Japanese think of Okinawa as 'real' Japan, I suspect). I've always wondered if this was the result of MacArthur sly-fully puppeting the govt. from the curtains through much of occupation. This was something I had heard about a few times in college; it looked like Japan was restructuring it self, but SCAP was still heavily involved.

[Zgarbas]

Way I understood it is that the Japanese held a deep grudge towards the Americans, but understood that they didn't have a chance. They tried to fight during the world wars, but it seems that they got their asses kicked enough for them to just resign with the fact that the Americans will always be there and if they don't adapt they'll disappear. Add to that a few decades of intense American influence and aside from a small minority the lasting wounds are gone.

And you can't really compare the grudge between two countries who've only clashed a couple of times with one that has been lasting since forever (like Japan/China).

(can you really call it the past century given how their relationship has only started improving roughly 5 decades ago? )

I just wanted to touch on this a bit...

Zgarbas Wrote:Look, there's a difference between insulting a band and insulting people's belief.

awaken Wrote:Could you explain what's the difference?
My belief is AKB48 is great. Other people said AKB48 is a piece of shit. (And then no one started a flame-war, by the way.) It's a shame that a forum full of clever people is moderated by you. Go and censure people for saying something bad about a thousands-years-old fiction book, while you don't care about the rest of critiques... Keep up the good work. I'm leaving now.

Zgarbas Wrote:One is a religion: It involves 2000 years of formation, was the cause of many historical events, both good and bad, and has billions of followers, many of which dedicate their entire lives to it; most of which spend their lives in a manner which respects it and its creeds. If you're talking religion in general then make that 5000+ years, with what, 80% of the important events in history being more or less directly linked to it? Most people's links with religion are of a spiritual nature. It's a touchy enough subject that real wars are started because of it. It's also touchy because people generally don't like strangers coming over and insulting important parts of their lives just so they can feel better about themselves.
One is a idol factory that's been there for a few years, and most people's links with it is that it's a good entertainment/fap source. It's a touchy subject because people would like to touch the girls that are part of it.

It sounds like you're making religion as being something that shouldn't be talked about because as nadiatim says (the post following yours), some people might be offended by it and because religion is a "special" topic. In my opinion, religion, like AKB48, are things that do not automatically deserve respect: http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutreligio...ligion.htm

When religions demand "respect", it is basically codeword for "Don't say anything bad about it". I don't know about your personal views on religion and whether you respect it or not, and while you don't outright state that religion is off-limits to discussion, what you have written nevertheless seems to present religion as something that is more important than others (like AKB48), and because of that special status, affords it some special privileges (the implication that it shouldn't be discussed, as least not in a negative manner).

In my opinion, the merits and/or demerits of religion as well as AKB48 should be judged by themselves in an open and civilized discussion (this thread for example), and people shouldn't silence themselves just because other people might be offended at the subject matter or just because religions demand some sort of exclusive "respect" (IE. "you're not allowed to say anything bad about religion").

Like awaken, I also believe in AKB48. However, we followers of AKB48 do not demand that it deserves some sort of privileged status making it immune from criticism. In fact, there has been a lot of negative feedback on AKB48 on these forums but I respect people's rights to their opinions and for those opinions to be aired in public.

I simple request that the religions of the world are treated the same way.

Zgarbas Wrote:Look, there's a difference between insulting a band and insulting people's belief.

I'm afraid I don't really understand this analogy and your reply to awaken didn't seem to fully answer it. Could you clarify what you mean from your analog and how it relates to discussions about religion? In regards to AKB48, it seems pretty clear: insulting AKB48 is okay, but insulting people for liking AKB48 is not.

I just want to make sure that when I (or other people) am insulting something, I'm insulting it in an appropriate way.

Thank you.

-----

As for why religions like Catholicism and Christianity failed in Japan, perhaps one possible explanation is that Japan as a whole, isn't usually regarded as being poor, starving or disadvantaged?

I don't really follow religion but the spreading of religion seems to be more successful if a country is poor, destitute, with relatively low education, and relatively high poverty. For example, success rates of religion are higher in African countries and the poorer South East Asian countries, such as the Philippines who are very enthusiastic about Catholicism to the point where re-enacting the Crucifixion (using real nails) is a national past time.

People have also pointed out Japan's Shintoism/Buddhism or simply tradition, as already fulfilling what they need spiritually which is another major explanation.

South Korea is an interesting exception though. What about China? Last time I checked, they don't really care about the big religions either but then again, they don't really care about white people either. Come to think of it, opium was China's religion at one point so I can fully understand why they don't want the white man's full-blown religion.

Hey hey- Korean here learning Japanese, and here is my take.
Some people mentioned that Christianity was banned in Japan. Well, same was also true in Korea, people had to walk on an image of Jesus, and if they refused they were killed, very similar to Japanese.
Unfortunately, I couldn't read every post in detail, but here is my take on the difference:

1. Christianity was a religion of white men. For Japan, it was that of invaders. For Korea, it was that of their liberators. Not to mention, Christianity as a religion played role in nationalism during Japanese occupation, binding people together in a common cause against invading Japanese forces. In fact, many of the Korean independence force during Japanese occupation were Christian.
2. Unlike China, which was also liberated by Western forces after WWII, there has not been governmental control of religion due to communism in S. Korea. Thus, Christianity was free to spread after the war. I'm sure missionaries were happy to go to a war-stricken country to spread the word, etc.

Lack of christianity, or really any religion at all, is one of the very best things about Japan and I hope it never changes.

Christianity won't be taken up in Japan because there is no reason for any well educated populace to start believing in random fairy tales from a book someone brought over from another country.

Hundreds of years ago people were less educated and religions spread more easily. Fortunately that situation is starting to reverse somewhat.

NightSky Wrote:[...] won't be taken up in Japan because there is no reason for any well educated populace to start believing in random fairy tales from a book someone brought over from another country.

Are we supposed to ignore the fact that Japan did exactly this several times in their history? Having lived here a while I don't find the average education level to be that high at all. It's pretty much like anywhere else in the world.

During my year at Kyoto University I read this short story by 芥川龍之介 called 神神の微笑.
It's really interesting in regard to why religion like Christianity never got a foothold in Japan. The story revolves around a Catholic (?) missionary meeting up with a spirit of Japan telling him about Japan's 作り替える力, in other words that Japan has a tendency to not protest too much about foreign stuff, but just remake it in some way in order to make it fit with the rest of society. I thought 芥川's view was really interesting, and I definitely agree when I see how Japan has taken the church marriage ceremony, Halloween, Valentine's day etc., made some adjustments in order to make it more "Japan-friendly" and then made it a part of Japanese society.

For anyone interested, you can read the above-mentioned story here:
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000879/fil...15177.html
Warning: It's really hard to read. At least it was for me...

tokyostyle Wrote:

NightSky Wrote:[...] won't be taken up in Japan because there is no reason for any well educated populace to start believing in random fairy tales from a book someone brought over from another country.

Are we supposed to ignore the fact that Japan did exactly this several times in their history? Having lived here a while I don't find the average education level to be that high at all. It's pretty much like anywhere else in the world.

My point is that in those times of their history they weren't educated compared to where they are now. No first world countries today are picking up new religions.

I do believe that peoples knowledge of science and theories of evolution and such makes it very hard for new religions to penetrate. Even a hundred years ago people were likely nowhere near as close to as educated as they are today.

(Although the spread of Islam makes me wonder, but that seems more about an already uneducated populace moving to other countries rather than convincing new people. This is all just random opinion though and quite possibly bullshit).

The spread of religions in a place has very little to do with education. There is a lot of superstition in Japan as it is, and its only a few steps from that to a religion. I don't think anyone has to worry about a critical mass spread of the religion in Japan though mainly because no one has any time for religions. I think this is why Shinto/Buddhism has a comfortable spot here; it demands little of the people to be a 'follower.'

That said, there is a fairly strong presence of Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses in Japan though, but only so much in that they are annoying when they bug you.

TheVinster Wrote:Couldn't be happier that Christianity has failed in Japan.

Yes, how happy that State Shinto succeeded.
Atheism could have succeeded as well in Japan. At least in the top half, if Stalin had got his way in 1945. I'm sure The People's Republic of Hokkaido would have been so happy about that.

Anyway, as to the question "Why did Christianity ...fail in Japan?"

The answer is down to a fluke of history: Tokogawa's decision to ban it.

Otherwise Christianity had been doing fine with many Diamyo, not just in Kyushu, adopting the religion and Oda Nobunaga enjoying the company of Jesuits.
I'm not saying Japan would have become fully Christian, aka the Philippines, but it would have had a bigger presence.

Either way, the idea of "mentality" determining what religion a country will be is a crazy case of confusing cause with effect.

NightSky Wrote:I do believe that peoples knowledge of science and theories of evolution and such makes it very hard for new religions to penetrate. Even a hundred years ago people were likely nowhere near as close to as educated as they are today.

I'd say most people don't even understand evolution and how sure scientists are of it, this is my observation from samples on the Internet and real life, no hard facts. There's too much superstition around that I'm constantly amazed how some people can believe somethings without weighting them in their logic!
So I don't think that's a good reason.

raharney Wrote:The answer is down to a fluke of history: Tokogawa's decision to ban it.

And thank "God" he did!