[ファブリス]

Hey guys,

I've ordered all the parts for my new computer but I just can't make up my mind to buy the Apple Cinema Display, mainly because of the one year warranty.

I really like the iMac's 16:9 aspect, and ideally would like to stay at 2560x1440.

Response time is not really an issue (this iMac panel has 10-12 ms I think, never notice the "ghosting"). But I really don't like the strong anti-glare coating that is on some Dell models.

What monitors would you recommend?

Something IPS (true IPS (S/H/P) not e-ips) and 16:10.

Edit: I suppose I should iterate a bit more.

16:10 actually matches the golden ratio which is something that humans are proven to naturally prefer to look at. Inch for inch you also get more screen estate compared to a 16:9 monitor.

E-IPS is something that came out semi-recently, and is essentially a dumbed down version of traditional IPS monitors in that they're not 8 bit. You'll usually find it in low end IPS monitors now. You know when you have a quality IPS monitor when it's capable of 1.02 billion colors (8bit + dithering).

I also wouldn't worry about the anti-glare coat on Dell IPS monitors. The Ultrasharp line is phenomenal. They're beautiful to look at, and I don't notice anything even when comparing side-by-side in reality.

[ファブリス]

16:10 is closer to television right? For desktop, I quite like 16:9. I have a friend with a 16:10 and if feels weird to me. For programming I prefer to have wider than taller screen.

For performance reasons also that's 10% less pixels to push for the video card, which is quite significant for gaming at 2560.

I have another friend who bought the U2711 Dell and the anti-glare coating is very strong, with this one :p I've seen it myself. There are tons of feedback about it on the web so I realized I'm not the only one who dislikes it either.

The coating seems to be a polarizing issues. Some people hate it, some people hate the reflective glass pane of the ACD. YMMV I guess.

There are some really good options for 27 inch that's for sure.

These are a few I saw recommended:

Dell UltraSharp U2711
HP ZR2740w
SyncMaster S27A850D
SyncMaster S27B970D

Hmmm... I wonder if the LG panel in the ACD and this iMac use dithering. I've been wondering about that actually. After all 8bit RGB is only 256 shades of pure gray right? I noticed sometimes I can see bands in gradient and I haven't really cleared that up whether it's my screen which is not properly configured, or maybe a limitation of the panel? I've noticed this banding only in gray gradients so far, as in the background of the Steam application.

I don't understand your point on 16:9. 16:10 is equally as wide as 16:9. However I will respect it.

Anyways I'd also take a read over this: http://haruhichan.com/wpblog/index.php/3...guide.html

That guy is quite knowledgeable.

[ファブリス]

Well it's the aspect ratio. I don't think you can argue one is really superior over the other, it's a personal preference thing.

EDIT: Although I think you get black bars when watching 720p or 1080p video on YouTube on a 16:10?

EDIT2: Erm, that guide's pretty much repeating what every other LCD buyer's guide says. It's not very professional either ("Most screens are way, way too ***** bright"). I'd stick to professional tech reviews that do thorough testing and comparisons. All the stuff he says is pretty much common knowledge these days, as LCDs aren't new. Just "my 2 cents".

ファブリス Wrote:16:10 is closer to television right?

No. TV is either 4:3 or 16:9.
Here are the list of standard TV resolutions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_com..._standards

16:9 is better for watching movies/videos and playing games (with 16:10 you'll get black bars, which really annoy me).

16:10 is better for browsing and look at documents.
You'll lose some framerate in 16:10 when playing games.

For programming, vertical space is more important than horizontal space.
So a monitor that you can rotate 90 degrees (like the dell Ultrasharp U2410
or U2412M) is better for programming.

Did you consider those Korean IPS monitors? They are really basic but still its 27inch IPS with 2560x1440 resolution for 300$, can't go wrong with that

[ファブリス]

@thurd I heard about those but it seems a bit of a gamble, and I don't know where I'd get them honestly. I could order a 27 inch from Amazon around 650 € free delivery, 30 day returns which isn't that bad.

get u3011

If you need high resolution, Eizo has a 4K monitor for $36,000 (No. That's not a typo).

http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/21/eizo-...s-start-s/

Hyperborea Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:For programming, vertical space is more important than horizontal space.
So a monitor that you can rotate 90 degrees (like the dell Ultrasharp U2410
or U2412M) is better for programming.

Except, that when you rotate you'll lose the sub-pixel rendering of the text and it will be less sharp. Sub-pixel rendering is where the text rendering engine uses the rgb elements of each pixel separately to create a sort of virtual 3 horizontal pixels per real pixel. It doesn't work when you rotate and put the 3 sub-pixels in a vertical orientation.

Until desktop screens are above say 200-250 dpi this will be an issue.

However, once you go to a ~30" screen then there is no need at all to rotate and in fact having two text windows side by side on the width of the screen can be awfully nice.

Yes. I know that. But sub-pixel rendering isn't crucial for programming.
If you're a graphic artist or movie producer, I could understand, though.

well I'm not a programmer, rather I'm into monitors for graphic design usage, alongside entertainment value of course. I bought the dell U2711 about a year ago and it rocks.

I know the anti-glare thing is a little bothersome to some people but I think you get used to it and pretty soon you just see right through it... I don't even notice it anymore.

What I can't get used to, is when I had an imac at work and because of the reflective coating you always see a part of your head in the picture. there is a permanent layer of semi-transparent mirror on top of their beautiful monitor.

both are IPS, which is important to me, and of course a lot of graphics ppl use those apple monitors, but generally because they got the imac/laptop and have to. It's very much not ideal.

perhaps in a perfect world you could take the dell anti-glare down about 1/3rd of its strength, but other than that, from my point of view, the U2711 is the best monitor out there.

ファブリス Wrote:@thurd I heard about those but it seems a bit of a gamble, and I don't know where I'd get them honestly. I could order a 27 inch from Amazon around 650 € free delivery, 30 day returns which isn't that bad.

You can get them without doing the weird import-via-ebay thing, depending where you are. For instance I got a Hazro HZ27WC from a reputable UK online seller (overclockers). The monitor is fantastic (I'm sure Apple's cinema display has stricter rules for numbers of dead pixels but TBH I haven't noticed the few I have on this display after I did my initial check for them, and it was half the price of the cinema display!). The only disadvantage of this particular model is it's dual-link-DVI input only, and Apple's display-port-to-dual-DVI adaptor is pretty poor. There should be a similar model around with display-port input though.

[ファブリス]

I can see the point against the glass pane at work, but at home I can optimize my viewing conditions, it's never been a problem. The black border around the panel on the iMac is SO dark, it's awesome. It's like total blackness. On the other hand I really don't like the plastic sheen on typical LCD's I had before (1680px Samsung Syncmaster, or a BenQ).

Hyperborea Wrote:However, once you go to a ~30" screen then there is no need at all to rotate and in fact having two text windows side by side on the width of the screen can be awfully nice.

That would be more along my lines of thinking. I absolutely love the font smoothing under Mac OS X and recently after testing out Linux Mint I have to say the default font smoothing was pretty nice in Linux too. Coupled with high resolution, I have ~80 lines of text in a non-maximized VIM window and that's comfortable enough for me. I mean, if I can't fit a function in that many lines of code, it's a good sign I need to split it up into smaller functions, teehee.

I saw people use a vertical oriented screen at work, I doubt it improves productivity. I also use Photoshop regularly when doing web development, so I don't see myself rotating my monitor every now and then. 27 inch is expensive, but that's the best comfort for me. Plus now I'm using the iPad on a dock with a bluetooth keyboard to read RSS feeds and check emails and do a few other things so I have even less of a need for a dual monitor setup.

pm215 Wrote:The only disadvantage of this particular model is it's dual-link-DVI input only, and Apple's display-port-to-dual-DVI adaptor is pretty poor. There should be a similar model around with display-port input though.

Not a priority but the MiniDP support (or DP with adapter) is a definite plus, as I have an old Macbook Pro for backup. It's nice to be able to connect it to the monitor.

I can suggest a couple of things to consider.

First of all, whatever monitor you buy is going to become outdated much sooner than what we're used to. Typically a good monitor outlives the machine it's bought for and can serve well through a couple of upgrades. In the nearest future though, current monitors will be considered "low-rez". The resolution is about to double.


Source: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Intel-H...15329.html

I'm thinking now is just a really sucky time to invest a lot of money in a monitor. If the new models are pricey when they come out then you may get more mileage out of your 2012 purchase. Otherwise you are about to buy yesterday's technology that is about to be replaced. Just something to be aware of . Or "yet another thing to stress about" depending on your point of view, hehe.

Consideration number two is PWM flicker. If you don't know what this is then here you go, it's another damn thing to worry about. I learned about it when I started using a second monitor (some cheapo 17" panel) and after a while my eyes got so red I couldn't use the computer any more. At first I just thought I was reading too much Wikipedia or something and tried using eye drops. When I realized nothing was helping, my eyes were falling out of their sockets and I decided to look at my monitors through a camera. What I saw was terrible flicker on the 17" that was undetectable without a camera.

(Videos aren't mine)
Check 1

Check 2

It's not a bad backlight if anyone is wondering. Read up on PWM if you must. I have 3 screens with flicker of various badness and 2 without (iPad 3 and a netbook). The solution is to turn your screen brightness to 100% and then darken it with software on the computer (driver controls, etc.). I use Shades for OS X.

[ファブリス]

Interesting.

Yep me may be moving to Retina soon, but it will still require a beefy GPU to power such resolutions and/or SLI *for gaming*.

For anything else we may well be able to get affordable high density screens in a few years time.

So for gaming I'm not too worried about my 27 inch investment. I own an iPad 3 so I can imagine a 27 inch Retina monitor... but I can't see a panel like the one on my iMac becoming obsolete anytime soon. Worst case it would lose a lot of value when I want to resell it because of the newer high density displays.

As for the flickering, I did notice it on this iMac on a few occasions. It's happened when I switched it on that the flickering was very noticable. It was pretty bad but disappeared after a minute or so. I do have brightness quite high on this one (60%) because the PSU makes an annoying buzz if I set the brightness lower.

Thankfully I don't have too much eye strain.. my eyes must have mutated by now Or maybe the contact lenses make it more bearable. It's crazy the amount of brightness I can take especially in the evening. My monitor pretty much lights the room :p

EDIT: I'll try Shades. Started using f.lux recently in Windows, works quite well though honestly like I said, my eyes have a mutated gene by now so it doesn't seem to change much for me :p

PPS: I do NOT use my monitor/iMac in total darkness though! I have a chinese paper lantern style lamp, with warm diffuse light behind me above a shelf (near the ceiling), and another one accross the room. Really love dimmed/diffused warm lights in the evening. If I use just the monitor I definitely get eye strain.

ファブリス Wrote:but I can't see a panel like the one on my iMac becoming obsolete anytime soon...

I don't know about that.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-574655...n-october/

There's another article saying otherwise:
http://www.powerpage.org/2012/09/04/next...a-display/

Maybe they couldn't make them in time for the holiday season this year.
Either way, Retina Display iMacs are likely just around the corner.

Even NVIDIA is getting excited about 4K display.
The latest NVIDIA cards can already decode 4K
videos up to 3840 x 2160.

I'd wait a bit to get a 4K monitor if I were you.
What you have now is good enough, even if you're
itching to get something else (i.e. an impulse buy).

shinsen Wrote:First of all, whatever monitor you buy is going to become outdated much sooner than what we're used to. Typically a good monitor outlives the machine it's bought for and can serve well through a couple of upgrades. In the nearest future though, current monitors will be considered "low-rez". The resolution is about to double.

On the other hand, reasonably priced monitors today are much nicer than ones of three to five years ago; tech always gets better and/or cheaper... (and in fact I just upgraded both my laptop and monitor together, having bought both the previous versions about five years ago).

I think I'd agree that it's not necessarily wise to spend a *lot* of money on a monitor now, but then it's often better not to get the absolute-top-of-the-range of any bit of computer kit.

[ファブリス]

Yeah there's been lots of rumours on the Retina iMac. I personally doubt it will happen this year, but why not. Macs were never targetted at gamers so I could see Apple going Retina on it.

However for those like me who enjoyed playing games in Windows on their Mac, that would be a pretty bad development. I doubt that 2x scaling would end up with a sharp image for games, and then you're still left with scaling problems in Windows, which was not prepared as well as OS X for resolution independent GUI (as far as I know).

For everyone else who doesn't run any demanding games, hell yes.

I mean I can't deny that even at 2560 right now the icon labels in Windows are pretty crummy. I can see pixels. I can clearly see aliasing in games without AA.

But Retina on a 27 inch... that's a lot of pixels o_O

Top 2 reasons to wait for 4K: Battlefield 3 and half-naked fairies.....;-p

http://[video=youtube]http://www.youtube...LM[/video]
http://[video=youtube]http://www.youtube...TU[/video]

[ファブリス]

chamcham Wrote:I'd wait a bit to get a 4K monitor if I were you.
What you have now is good enough, even if you're
itching to get something else (i.e. an impulse buy).

Umm, my computer is almost three years old. The Core i5-750 is still pretty good, but thanks to Apple's all in one design, I can't upgrade the GPU. I want games to run smoothly. Sure I can still play some Skyrim but forget about the highres texture pack with 512MB VRAM and forget about all recent games like Battlefield 3.

You can wait forever. That's silly. These monitors are not here practically speaking. It's the same as saying I'd wait to buy a SSD if I were you when they weren't even mainstream and cost 1000$ for 64 GB.

I mean come on, a 2560x1440 monitor is still way above average right now. 95% of gamers on steam statistics are still playing at 1920, and only 17% use multiple monitors.

4K panel will be mainstream in two to three years for now, at minimum.

[ファブリス]

chamcham Wrote:For the price of a that big new 27" or 30" monitor,
you could custom build your own gaming PC and still have money left over.

These arguments are off topic really.

You're such a troll with this last post. How can you judge how someone else's money is spent without knowing their budget, priorities, or their needs? That's ridiculous.

I already spent 1650 € on the PC alone *AND* I'm buying a sweet monitor on top. It's a question of priorities.

I've seen people on forums make comment to the like of "people who spend more than XYZ on a computer are stupid". I bet these people spend XYZ on cigs, alcohols, shitty ready made foods, multiple cans of coke a day at work + sweets from the vendor machine, medicines they wouldn't need if they didn't eat all this crap, debt for a car and countless other utilities and activities which they're told they need to have or do by their peers so they can be "cool" and looked upon as "having a life"... oh man I could go on such a huge rant here.

I spend my money where it matters to me. *shrug*

[ファブリス]

pm215 Wrote:You can get them without doing the weird import-via-ebay thing, depending where you are. For instance I got a Hazro HZ27WC from a reputable UK online seller (overclockers). The monitor is fantastic (I'm sure Apple's cinema display has stricter rules for numbers of dead pixels but TBH I haven't noticed the few I have on this display after I did my initial check for them, and it was half the price of the cinema display!). The only disadvantage of this particular model is it's dual-link-DVI input only, and Apple's display-port-to-dual-DVI adaptor is pretty poor. There should be a similar model around with display-port input though.

Oh ok I misread your post earlier I just came across the page:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduc...120&subcat=

Strangely it's not on Amazon.co.uk or Amazon.fr, but it does look like a good gamble

If it was on Amazon here I'd definitely have given it a go.

ファブリス Wrote:

chamcham Wrote:For the price of a that big new 27" or 30" monitor,
you could custom build your own gaming PC and still have money left over.

These arguments are off topic really.

You're such a troll with this last post. How can you judge how someone else's money is spent without knowing their budget, priorities, or their needs? That's ridiculous.

I already spent 1650 € on the PC alone *AND* I'm buying a sweet monitor on top. It's a question of priorities.

I've seen people on forums make comment to the like of "people who spend more than XYZ on a computer are stupid". I bet these people spend XYZ on cigs, alcohols, shitty ready made foods, multiple cans of coke a day at work + sweets from the vendor machine, medicines they wouldn't need if they didn't eat all this crap, debt for a car and countless other utilities and activities which they're told they need to have or do by their peers so they can be "cool" and looked upon as "having a life"... oh man I could go on such a huge rant here.

I spend my money where it matters to me. *shrug*

No need to rant.
I just re-read everything and realized I misread this thread.
I apologize.

If I understand you correctly, the main reason you don't want the Apple Cinema Display is the one-year limited warranty. Is that the only thing keeping you from buying it?

You can purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan to extend the warranty to 3 years.
It only costs $99. If you've already spent 1650 Euros ($2068 USD as of today) on your PC, $99 USD is pocket change.

Warranty info is here:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC250L...le-display

Again, sorry for going out of line with my comments.
I've been a little out of it this week.

Moshiwake gozaimasen...

[ファブリス]

It's ok. I think you missed the main point with the monitor is that this iMac is an all in one. So my only means of upgrading my GPU which is 3 generations behind and too weak for current games at the 27 inch resolution, is to resell the whole thing, and get a newer model.

In the meantime I decided to go back to putting together a PC. At least in 2-3 years I will be able to give older parts to my father as I used to. He's still using my computer case from 2000! (bought him a 5770 two years ago but everything else just barely support that GPU)

So now I had to get a monitor and I was trying to find something similar to this iMac which I've grown comfortable with. I was looking for alternatives but the displays comparable in quality that are available here start at 650 €.

Anyway I finally caved in on a Apple Cinema Display. Problem solved. >_>

That said I'll return it asap it I'm not 100% happy with it. Fingers crossed...