As we all know, China is a growing economic superpower (or at least, that's what people who already have money invested in China would like to convince us of). Naturally, the Chinese language leans more towards usefulness, as opposed to arguably useless languages like Latin or Tribal languages.

Ask most people who want to learn Japanese, and they'll say things like anime or video games. I can't remember the last time someone said they want to learn Japanese because of its economy (which like most countries, is stagnating).

Ask most people who want to learn Chinese, and the vast majority will say money, economy, job or career. There's a few problems with this.

1) Chinese people also learn English so any advantages gained by learning Chinese are gone again.

2) Learning languages requires a lot of motivation and it is easier to learn a language if you enjoy it. Everyone likes money but if you're learning a language because of money (an arguably shallow reason), then it's going to be a very hard job. In order to enjoy learning a language, you'll need to read and enjoy Chinese books, movies, cartoons and music. This might be a controversial opinion, but Japanese books, movies and music are better than Chinese ones, where the Chinese ones are just endless Journey to the West retellings or yet another Ancient Feudal China Dynasty Wars stories. This is taken to the extreme with Japanese cartoons: Japanese cartoons are world leaders while Chinese cartoons practically don't exist.

3) Like people in many other countries, many Chinese people learn English to get out of China because other countries have higher standards of living. To me, a first-world Westerner to learning Chinese to live in China is basically degrading his own living standards unless he is an exceptional individual who knows he will be earning big Renminbi bucks in China.

4) If your only goal or main goal for learning Chinese is for money, then there are many faster ways of doing the same thing, like learning how to run a business, going to university, or just a simple Home Finance course that covers topics like understanding interest rates and learning how to manage debt. China has high savings rates while Western countries has low savings rates and high levels of personal debt (using credit to buy big televisions etc). So by taking the Home Finance course, you will "make" money straightaway.

Basically, I just want to understand the mentality of those people who are learning the Chinese mainly because of money, economy, job or career. In what way do Western people expect to be financially better of by learning Chinese? What is so financially compellion about learning Chinese? Is there some comparative advantage that I'm no aware of?

I find this interesting because it seems that the learning of Chinese, above all other languages, with the exception of English, are cited for financial reasons. To me, learning English for financial reasons makes more sense than learning Chinese for financial reasons because first world English-speaking countries tend to have the higher standards of living. In comparison, China's living standards are lower, so learning Chinese for financial reasons seems contradictory when looking at those factors.

For example, think of it as a series of links 1. Learn Chinese --> 2. ??? --> 3. ??? --> 4. ??? --> 5. Financially better off.

What is your opinion on this Chinese language learning phenomenon?

I'm not so sure that people who aim to learn Chinese for financial reasons do it with the idea of living in China. China is coming up in the economic world and being able to communicate with them in their language could be lucrative, though that would usually also require some business-related ability.

You really have no experience in international business do you?

Let me break it down for you, in the West (read USA), having knowledge of Chinese (or any number of languages including Japanese) almost always results in increased salary and career advancement opportunities.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:To me, learning English for financial reasons makes more sense than learning Chinese for financial reasons because first world English-speaking countries tend to have the higher standards of living.

I think a bigger reason for learning English is because it's not just used for business dealings with English-speaking countries. It is, whether we like it or not, the closest thing we have to a global lingua franca, so you're not exactly anchoring your career to any particular countries by studying it. As long as we don't see suppliers from Brazil and clients from Norway conducting negotiations in Mandarin it won't come anywhere near challenging English in that role. It seems like there are people out there who believe that Mandarin is going to do exactly that some time this century, while others just think that learning Chinese will put them in a better position to profit from the Chinese boom while it lasts.

My view of language learning as an investment is best expressed by this blog post. Personally, I also intend to take up Chinese at some point, but not for the career opportunities. While what originally drew me into Japanese was pop culture, learning the kanji and Japan's cultural influences from China made me very interested in classical Chinese culture. But I'm delaying this until I get to a comfortable level in Japanese. As for my Japanese studies, I'm actually trying to build my career around my interest in Japan. I guess we'll see in a few decades whether or not this was a stupid idea

kitakitsune Wrote:You really have no experience in international business do you?

Let me break it down for you, in the West (read USA), having knowledge of Chinese (or any number of languages including Japanese) almost always results in increased salary and career advancement opportunities.

This is assuming that the person has any other skills suited to international business.

JimmySeal Wrote:I'm not so sure that people who aim to learn Chinese for financial reasons do it with the idea of living in China. China is coming up in the economic world and being able to communicate with them in their language could be lucrative, though that would usually also require some business-related ability.

kitakitsune Wrote:You really have no experience in international business do you?

Let me break it down for you, in the West (read USA), having knowledge of Chinese (or any number of languages including Japanese) almost always results in increased salary and career advancement opportunities.

My issue is that people who learn Chinese for mainly financial reasons are taking a lot of time and a big risk.

Think about people who learn Japanese. They do it for mainly entertainment reasons. If the Japan's economy goes even worse, that's okay because they didn't learn it for money in the first place. They can still use their Japanese for anime, manga etc.

As for people who learn Chinese, they do it for financial reasons mainly. China's economic growth can't last forever, or at least, not the current rate. Why do you think they're investing in Africa? Eventually, Chinese workers wages will grow which means less business between the West and China will be done. This means less salary and career advance opportunities for Chinese language learners back in the US.

The difference is that those who learn Japanese can continue to use it for entertainment reasons, while those who learn Chinese can't because they did it for money.

JimmySeal Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:You really have no experience in international business do you?

Let me break it down for you, in the West (read USA), having knowledge of Chinese (or any number of languages including Japanese) almost always results in increased salary and career advancement opportunities.

This is assuming that the person has any other skills suited to international business.

Are you saying that learning Chinese by itself isn't particularly useful, but it is a good supplement when combined with something else (EG. international trade/business, etc)?

I guess that makes sense.

Then again, why go through the trouble of learning the language when you can just hire a translator?

Korean > Chinese > Japanese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC and go to the Gross Domestic Product per capita table.

Japanese seems to be the worst investment out of the three, given it's GDP per capita is lower than S.Korea and it's aggregate GDP is lower than China and not much better than S.korea (an unified N. and S. Korea in 2050 should excel Japan in total GDP)

So basically if you are planning to live in East Asian, live in S.Korea, if you planning to do business, go to China.

Surely someone who can dedicate themselves enough to Chinese to become fluent must at least enjoy it somewhat? Maybe in China people are desperate enough for social advancement/migration to the Anglosphere that it becomes their sole motivation, but I can't imagine people like that here.

JimmySeal Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:You really have no experience in international business do you?

Let me break it down for you, in the West (read USA), having knowledge of Chinese (or any number of languages including Japanese) almost always results in increased salary and career advancement opportunities.

This is assuming that the person has any other skills suited to international business.

This is why I said "almost always"

And learning a foreign language is not a big risk. Even the most elementary knowledge opens up doors and could lead to higher pay.

Also very few people are learning Chinese to move to China to work at Chinese wages**. They are learning Chinese to make themselves more attractive to multinational companies with significant operations in China. There's a big difference.

** Except maybe places like Hong Kong or Singapore

warakawa Wrote:Korean > Chinese > Japanese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC and go to the Gross Domestic Product per capita table.

Japanese seems to be the worst investment out of the three, given it's GDP per capita is lower than S.Korea and it's aggregate GDP is lower than China and not much better than S.korea (an unified N. and S. Korea in 2050 should excel Japan in total GDP)

So basically if you are planning to live in East Asian, live in S.Korea, if you planning to do business, go to China.

South Korea and China don't have otaku culture, so pass.

[Zgarbas]

People I know that moved to China that were not going there to do Humanitarian work
-> This guy whose brother moved there, had already spent a few months there, and kept claiming that they have way more freedom than our country does... he also said he went to Tianmen and that no massacre happened because no one told him of it.
-> People who when asked "Don't you feel a bit hypocritical going there and getting crazy benefits for foreigners whilst the locals are starving" said that it's natural selection.
-> People who insisted that they should get a scholarship to Japan for studying Japanese for 6 months (Uni level, so...roughly up to lesson 9 of Minna no Nihongo. Not knowing how to conjugate the verbs level) and since they didn't get one they moved to China because they appreciate people's work there.

For the record, about 50% of them started learning Chinese for the purpose of this thread. Not sure how far any of them got since they weren't the type of people I like to talk to. Our Chinese centre gets a buttload of students each year, almost all of them going there in hopes of getting jobs in China.

I've also met people who were taking up japanese/Korean/German etc for the same reason, but usually they had a bit more of a personal motivation to it(liked the sound of it, enjoy various things in pop-culture, liked the country, etc.). The only people I've met who took up a language exclusively for its business purpose (excluding English) were doing it with Chinese.

I think they're a bit silly, but who am I to judge?

BTW, according to this guy who tries to explain it to me once, the gist was that "Well everyone speaks English, but it's rare to see a Chinese speaker!". The fact that the billion Chinese people in the country speak it did not seem of importance.

I'm learning Chinese mainly because I work where there's a large Chinese immigrant population and it makes me feel bad when I can't provide even the most basic information to customers.

Sadly, my salary is set by the union, so this is not likely to result in me getting rich.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:As for people who learn Chinese, they do it for financial reasons mainly. China's economic growth can't last forever, or at least, not the current rate. Why do you think they're investing in Africa? Eventually, Chinese workers wages will grow which means less business between the West and China will be done. This means less salary and career advance opportunities for Chinese language learners back in the US.

I don't think that'll be a problem if China keeps artificially manipulating their currency.

kitakitsune Wrote:And learning a foreign language is not a big risk. Even the most elementary knowledge opens up doors and could lead to higher pay.

Also very few people are learning Chinese to move to China to work at Chinese wages**. They are learning Chinese to make themselves more attractive to multinational companies with significant operations in China. There's a big difference.

** Except maybe places like Hong Kong or Singapore

Maybe risk in the sense that.
Time learning Chinese is time not spent investing in another skill.
Maybe an opportunity cost.

Quote:Ask most people who want to learn Japanese, and they'll say things like anime or video games. I can't remember the last time someone said they want to learn Japanese because of its economy (which like most countries, is stagnating).

With the exception of this forum, I've never met anyone who said he was learning Japanese because of anime or video games. In fact, no-one I know gets involved with anime or video games. But then I mix mainly with adults.

Quote:Learning languages requires a lot of motivation and it is easier to learn a language if you enjoy it. Everyone likes money but if you're learning a language because of money (an arguably shallow reason), then it's going to be a very hard job

Is it more shallow than learning to be a doctor so that you can ply your trade as a doctor?

Quote:Think about people who learn Japanese. They do it for mainly entertainment reasons.

See my comment above.

I started learning Mandarin not too long ago and have recently moved to China. I've met many many foreigners and to be honest there are a plethora of different reasons why someone will start learning Chinese.

First, I'd like to say that from what I've seen most people who start learning Chinese for financial reasons don't get very far. They are usually under the impression that if they learn how to speak the language that their financial problems will cease to exist. What line of work they're interested in is beyond me, but perhaps I'm just short sighted.

I've also met a great deal of people that are majoring in the Chinese language. Their Chinese is usually terrible, I'm no native speaker though so for all I know theirs could be leagues better than mine. Quite a few are motivated by financial reasons, others I'm not too sure where their motivation comes from to dive into this language.

I have difficulty explaining in words the frustration I have accumulated from hearing that Chinese will become so widespread that it'll become the lingua franca. If it does somehow get to that point it doesn't mean English will vanish without a trace. English's roots are too deep for it to be plucked so easily. English is here to stay for well past my lifetime and probably many more after me.

There is also unfortunately not much widespread entertainment that is in Chinese. Yes, there are occasional ok movies. There are of course many other things as well, but not to such an extent as Japanese. That's why I think that the majority of people learning Chinese are (unfortunately?) doing so for the potential money that they believe they'll receive.

I wanted to make mention of that I've also met many unsavory characters that come to China to get rewarded for their skin color. Many also study Chinese at some point, to what degree I'm not too sure. Most pick up a significant other while in China, so perhaps that influences their decision to study. Their motivation could be perhaps partly for money or just to be that white guy that speaks Chinese.

In my mind I think the majority of people who study Chinese do so for the hope of monetary gain. This is followed by the people who come to China for significant others or for petty work. Last I believe are the people who have a fascination with Chinese culture, perhaps have family in China, or just study it because of the chic factor.

Me personally, I don't know why I'm studying Mandarin. I'm not even too sure why I'm in China. I don't know what category I'd be placed in. I'm here just because it's China, more of a "why not". I figure because I'm already here I'll spend my remaining time studying. This isn't because of work, money, or a significant other. I sometimes feel that the people who study Chinese for money may have a better reason than me. I guess a reason at all.

Either way, I think there's a handful of people that have valid reasons for learning Chinese for money. The others I think have some kind of fantasy of becoming an amazing translator learning the "hardest" language in the world all while being that suave sexy white person that speaks Chinese.

If someone is learning Chinese for money I'll try my best to not hold them back and hopefully they'll never make eye contact with me again. Take what I've said with a grain of salt, I don't particularly have any respect for people trying to learn Chinese for money, perhaps I've made it sound out of proportion or worse than it is. If you're learning Chinese for money, I'm sure you'll be well rewarded when you have a high level of Chinese. Rewarded with money I'm not too sure, perhaps by then you'll like the culture and/or have a Chinese wife.

I can't understand why someone would learn a language on the basis of the country's economy unless they're living in a poor country with a low quality of life to begin with. Even if offered a slight pay rise overseas, living in the country where one is happiest is more important than being able to buy more unnecessary possessions, surely?

I have no illusions of getting rich by knowing Japanese. It just lets me be hired for jobs in Japan. If money were my motivation I would have stayed in the UK where I have less obstacles.

dizmox Wrote:I can't understand why someone would learn a language on the basis of the country's economy unless they're living in a poor country with a low quality of life to begin with. Even if offered a slight pay rise overseas, living in the country where one is happiest is more important than being able to buy more unnecessary possessions, surely?

You're another person assuming these Chinese learners are all doing it with the intention of living in China. It's possible to benefit monetarily from knowing Chinese without ever setting foot in a Chinese-speaking country.

Ah, yeah, sorry I meant people who want to move abroad to make more money.

Fillanzea Wrote:I'm learning Chinese mainly because I work where there's a large Chinese immigrant population and it makes me feel bad when I can't provide even the most basic information to customers.

Sadly, my salary is set by the union, so this is not likely to result in me getting rich.

Faith in humanity restored?

What's puzzling me is that most Chinese companies hire sales personnel with weak English writing skills! For example, most of whom I contacted don't use Mr. or family name in their business emails. Some even have barely enough skill to make themselves understood. The last time I checked, English was the universal language.

So maybe westerners think "Hey, if they aren't good enough at English we will get better at Chinese and reach out for them"

On a side note, I have a friend who was searching for scholarships for master's degree in engineering. He found one in a Chinese university, but required the theses to be written in Chinese! Seriously? Like English isn't the language in which most knowledge is written, they're supposed to be able to read English!

[Zgarbas]

I hate the fact that English is the universal language to the point of it not being considered a skill anymore because it makes me feel bad about having spent so much time getting good at it, now that I'm not even allowed to major in translations since English is not considered a "real" foreign language in the EU.

It takes time and effort to learn English, just like with any other language, and you'll have people judging you much more harshly than if you're learning a not-so-popular language (read: ANY). It's not even a job bonus so much as a job requirement, even for entry-level jobs.

Why on Earth does it not make sense of a Chinese master's programme to have its thesis written in Chinese?

onafarm Wrote:With the exception of this forum, I've never met anyone who said he was learning Japanese because of anime or video games. In fact, no-one I know gets involved with anime or video games. But then I mix mainly with adults.

Huh? Videogames are reasonably mainstream now, plenty of adults play them, and quite a few surveys have suggested that the average age of players is increasing. For myself, it's not my reason for learning Japanese, but it's a nice bonus.

Zgarbas Wrote:I hate the fact that English is the universal language to the point of it not being considered a skill anymore because it makes me feel bad about having spent so much time getting good at it, now that I'm not even allowed to major in translations since English is not considered a "real" foreign language in the EU.

That does seem pretty unfair, it's not as though English is somehow easy, or things never need translating from English into other languages. Translating from English (especially I suppose literary translation) would be a skill just as much as from any other language, even if the majority knew English to a good level. It's still a skill if it's from Middle English to modern English, even, I always considered that to be largely unnecessary, since anyone who knows English ought to be able to figure it out with the help of the Middle English Dictionary, but it still takes quite a lot of thought to translate (and I love doing it).

I remember before the asset bubble burst in the early 90s how people were saying we should all learn Japanese, because the Japanese were about to take over the world. Economic fortunes come and go. Seems like a pretty shallow reason to learn a language to me. Then again, I'm one of those mythical "Learning Japanese Because of Anime" people who seem to exist only on the Internet, so who am I to judge?

[Zgarbas]

Ampharos64 Wrote:That does seem pretty unfair, it's not as though English is somehow easy, or things never need translating from English into other languages. Translating from English (especially I suppose literary translation) would be a skill just as much as from any other language, even if the majority knew English to a good level. It's still a skill if it's from Middle English to modern English, even, I always considered that to be largely unnecessary, since anyone who knows English ought to be able to figure it out with the help of the Middle English Dictionary, but it still takes quite a lot of thought to translate (and I love doing it).

Basically translation here is a mess when it comes to English. We get like 1000 people fighting for one internship spot, lots of people who work for free to get experience, and every place that involves translation to English or "English is the only required skill" (customer service, telemarketing, etc.) has thousands of applicants since HEY everyone knows English and thought that might be a career . Hence the "5 years experience minimum in legal translations" requirement. Publishing houses are more lax about it, but publishing houses are also well-known for their extremely low (if any) pay... they only ask for 5 years experience in any translating domain. Unless they're the ones that pay; then they ask for 10.

(hilariously enough some people have pretty bad English but still get the translating gigs somehow. It's fun when you're working as a proofreader since they won't hire you for a translation gig and then you realize that the translator just translated all the idioms and phrasal verbs mot-a-mot)


P.S. Ah, bitterness got the best of me again. Welp, sorry about that rant. Please move back on the Chinese.

I worked for a U.S. organization that had offices in approximately 50 different countries around the world spanning all of the inhabited continents.

You know what languages actually had the most economic "advantage" and potential for career advancement? Answer: The most "useless" ones, at least by the typical way of thinking. Speak Mandarin? Congrats, so do a few hundred if not thousand other people in the organization including American born Chinese who are effectively dual native. Now don't get me wrong it is definitely a plus but the problem is that everyone else thinks so to so there is a ton of competition.

Know an African tribal language? Congrats on your new promotion as your are likely the only person in the entire organization who does. This isn't a made up story either, this is actual reality. Even though the organization I worked for had over 35,000 employees some assignments asking for fairly uncommon languages, but nothing close to being "obscure", would at times have only a single applicant with those language capabilities. In fact the youngest person in the organization's history to become the chief legal attache of one of our international offices became so with absolutely no competition. He was literally the only person who spoke the language and thus was the only choice. Other example was a guy who could speak Laotian, and not even at a very high level. One of the only people capable of doing so and thus was basically handed every special assignment we had there without so much as a debate.

I'm not stating the above as any sort of universal truth but it is just something to think about when people talk about the "value" of certain languages. Often times the most valuable item is the rarest one.